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Post by tomaan on Oct 16, 2020 20:39:51 GMT
I'm in general agreement with the OP tiers, except for maybe Bane Knight -- no matter how hard I try with that build, I can't make anything other than a nerfed blackguard or 1-dimensional caster. Was debating on whether or not Pally/Blackguard were truly b-tier classes, but, when properly built/equipped, then can be fairly effective sword-n-board tanks. Uhh... Divine Shield, Divine Might, free stats, free imms, saves, and in case of paladin useful utility, in case of harper/bg hide, B-tier sword-n-board?! Wot. That's some smiters only shenanigans completely ignoring one of their main features in Divine Shield. They shine because they can go 2h and deal massive damage while still retaining AC thanks to divine shield - and able to splash ftr/wm/hs (2 of those) while still getting divine might for damage and nice amount of stats/imms from class features and spells. When properly equipped/built post lvl 70, they're never sword&board unless they're smiting things, and they're definitely high tier in both damage and survivability, just maybe not quite as much as much individual oomph as You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I'd argue a requirement of level 70+ (or demi x1..... sometimes even 2!) makes them closer to "C" tier...especially when compared to ranger/monk/fighter which can generate a lot of damage and still be survivable from scratch. But, since you can still get a fair amount utility with a sword-n-board build until demi x1/lvl 70 (assuming you don't waste feats on great smiting), I'm cool with raising them back up to "B" tier. imho of course... |
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Post by dagoon on Oct 16, 2020 21:31:04 GMT
Uhh... Divine Shield, Divine Might, free stats, free imms, saves, and in case of paladin useful utility, in case of harper/bg hide, B-tier sword-n-board?! Wot. That's some smiters only shenanigans completely ignoring one of their main features in Divine Shield. They shine because they can go 2h and deal massive damage while still retaining AC thanks to divine shield - and able to splash ftr/wm/hs (2 of those) while still getting divine might for damage and nice amount of stats/imms from class features and spells. When properly equipped/built post lvl 70, they're never sword&board unless they're smiting things, and they're definitely high tier in both damage and survivability, just maybe not quite as much as much individual oomph as You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I'd argue a requirement of level 70+ (or demi x1..... sometimes even 2!) makes them closer to "C" tier...especially when compared to ranger/monk/fighter which can generate a lot of damage and still be survivable from scratch. But, since you can still get a fair amount utility with a sword-n-board build until demi x1/lvl 70 (assuming you don't waste feats on great smiting), I'm cool with raising them back up to "B" tier. imho of course... Took my 0 Demi, squishy as hell lvl 63 pally to malb earlier... out damaged the higher level and demi melee toons, including the “premium” fighter build quite comfortably. Yes he died a fair few times, but what’s to be expected when you have low ac and no real conceal.... run 2h, don’t be the first one into the pack as you’re a melee dps (for now) and not a tank. Paladins are easily A tier if the likes of barbarians are B. I’m actually really excited to see just how he performs once he’s a good pile of Demi and abyss wins under his belt. |
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Post by simpetar on Oct 16, 2020 23:56:13 GMT
Two words: player skill. If you truly wish to make some sort of meaningful "tier list", in this case based on damage, you need to exclude human factor. It is probably the biggest variable, ranging from S to F, or whatever your scale may be. Player skill includes a lot of stuff, using / switching optimal weapons, targeting the right monster, not dying / getting incapacitated by stupid avoidable stuff, and much, much more. From pure number perspective, CoT has the highest average damage of all tanks, followed closely by fighter. That is not an opinion, merely a sum of their damage boosts, APR and other relevant factors, all of them out of context (especially human-behind-the-keyboard context). Paladins are behind these two, but at least they have some utility (HS, Lay on Hands for squishies). If you wish this thread to degenerate even more into a phallic contest of my-damage-is-bigger-than-yours type, have at it, but its telling value will be close to none.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2020 0:34:17 GMT
As others mentioned, HG isn’t really suited for a class tier list due to the different archetypes which are difficult to compare apart from within their own categories, and are mostly self explanatory for cores in a large party.
It gets a little more interesting when considering smaller parties (eg: best 3/4/5 toon combinations) where the quasi-classes become more valuable.
Damage dealers are the only category where comparisons really makes sense ; I used to spend hours comparing damage output numbers in Excel, but in the end it mostly comes down to what combination of splashes you choose:
- Harper-splash adds +2 APR while boots are active ; this will add the most DPS overall but is time-based which can be a hassle
- WM-splash adds damage to crit-vulnerable targets
- Fighter-splash adds damage to all targets (Weapon Spec)
- Paladin-splash adds saves and damage to all targets (Divine Might)
- Monk-splash adds AC
Blending any combination of three of the above with some decent gear will produce a very high damage output 2Her (with variable survivability depending on classes chosen and gear/player skill).
COT and SD get a stable +1 APR and some extra damage and other perks, but lose a second splash option as they are prestige classes. They are more forgiving to gear, but will fall behind a Harper-splash build due to 1 less APR (and they are excluded from Harper-splash due to needing purity).
Any of the above 2Hers will absolutely leave non-2Hers or ranged toons in the dust. Practically speaking, top tier damage output in the mod is:
- 28 Fighter/7 WM/5 Harper for crit-vulnerable targets
- 31 Paladin/4 Fighter/5 Harper (or some variant thereabouts) for crit-immune targets
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Post by tomaan on Oct 17, 2020 1:49:09 GMT
Took my 0 Demi, squishy as hell lvl 63 pally to malb earlier... out damaged the higher level and demi melee toons, including the “premium” fighter build quite comfortably. Yes he died a fair few times, but what’s to be expected when you have low ac and no real conceal.... run 2h, don’t be the first one into the pack as you’re a melee dps (for now) and not a tank. Paladins are easily A tier if the likes of barbarians are B. I’m actually really excited to see just how he performs once he’s a good pile of Demi and abyss wins under his belt. Used to call that a "glass cannon", but power creep has turned them into "DPS Tanks" But yeah...you should lead (or come in a close second) in damage with a 2H div tank build. |
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Post by thomascovenant on Oct 17, 2020 13:26:04 GMT
Think the tiers should be more definited, as to be in dmg output, kills, support etc
I mean one class could be in a A for dmg but can be in C for kills or the inverse, this could be interesting to have the classification for the all different sides.
also this say "Turner Cleric – Can be incredibly useful on certain runs." In my mind turners are a way more useful then just on certain run, it should be said they are "on about all run" except on few. In most of the runs i gone with my BUR Turner she was on the top killer if not the top one by 2-3 even just to 5 times more kills then the closer killer in all the partys and runs, only few runs where this was not the case. Also even when less kills, she could even if not destroy a bunch of mobs make them turned and make them unable to defend themself and attack but just stand there and been hit just to be kill without doing any direct dmg to the party members. This is a way over to be useful "on some runs"
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Post by merkley on Oct 20, 2020 17:20:40 GMT
Thank you all for your feedback so far. I still haven't updated the build links, hoping to get to that soon.
I used a spreadsheet where I ranked offense/defense/utility of the classes. I'm not sure if it will helpful to publish it, as my stat rankings could be perceived to be as subjective as the class rankings themselves.
However this discussion, specifically the turner, paladin, CS Wis Ranger and Woqued's post got me thinking about what I define as the most important criteria for all the classes: efficiency
How quickly can the class you use get the run completed from buff to split while maximizing XP/hour and loot, both in 10 man parties and solo/small parties. I don't think ranking kills/damage/etc to be fully indicative of a classes power, but they can be used to help rank within the specific tiers(Melee DPS, Melee Insta Kill, Arcane etc).
Anyways, this gives me a lot to think about. See you next month with the updated rankings!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2020 17:32:19 GMT
Even efficiency goes back to Simp’s post. Player skill / knowledge. All of this is way too subjective to truly be of value. True value would be having a ton of the builds on all of the forums archived so what’s truly there is meta. I think that would serve your ultimate goal of having viable builds to follow and then players choosing for themselves based off their skill, knowledge, and objectives.
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Post by thomascovenant on Oct 20, 2020 18:54:43 GMT
Right the human factor can make a huge difference on the performance of a toon class. But there also more, like what are the other class in the party, in my previous comment i talked about my turner but put out of the party the bard or have one who is bard is not well set or who is not very effective and then my turner stats drop and not just a few but by a lot.
A well balance party in class is important, to have or not one class can make a big difference on stats for another class, same as the human factor for each class too, even the toons gearing can make a big difference on his stats, a toon who is not well gear can pass his time to need to be rez what make his stats drop on dmg and kills. Also if he use ego or not this affect his stats,
Over all of this there is a point to not forget, it's to have fun, to have good time with friends this is what in my mind is the most important thing on the game.
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Post by Methes on Oct 20, 2020 20:42:58 GMT
In my opinion the best feedback is given by total playtime of each class in a given time period. Efficient classes are the most popular ones and have the most playtime. Oddballs that exist just for fun or experiments get lost in the statistics, as well as classes that are underwhelming and not fun to play. This simple variable negates gear, skill and party composition as classes that are needed the most (cores for instance) have naturally the highest importance and playtime.
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Post by simpetar on Oct 21, 2020 6:33:59 GMT
However this discussion, specifically the turner, paladin, CS Wis Ranger and Woqued's post got me thinking about what I define as the most important criteria for all the classes: efficiency How quickly can the class you use get the run completed from buff to split while maximizing XP/hour and loot, both in 10 man parties and solo/small parties. I don't think ranking kills/damage/etc to be fully indicative of a classes power, but they can be used to help rank within the specific tiers(Melee DPS, Melee Insta Kill, Arcane etc). Even the "specific tiers" will be super tricky to rank. There are too many runs with different requirements. Example: turners in Dustbone explode everything, turners in Thids are dead weight. This goes for all tiers of play (say, replace DB with Than, Thids with Zio for instance). Another factor is synergy between classes and roles. There is a reason why we have "cores". A bard may not be top in any category, but will make everybody else shine. CoT may have the highest damage output of all tanks, but a lash or ranger will increase it even more. TLDR: Making such ranking for HG is a fun thought experiment, but there are way too many variables. If you were to consider even the simplest permutations of base classes and runs, you would end up not with a simple forum post, but a doctoral thesis  |
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Post by chainlink on Oct 21, 2020 8:50:25 GMT
However this discussion, specifically the turner, paladin, CS Wis Ranger and Woqued's post got me thinking about what I define as the most important criteria for all the classes: efficiency How quickly can the class you use get the run completed from buff to split while maximizing XP/hour and loot, both in 10 man parties and solo/small parties. I don't think ranking kills/damage/etc to be fully indicative of a classes power, but they can be used to help rank within the specific tiers(Melee DPS, Melee Insta Kill, Arcane etc). Even the "specific tiers" will be super tricky to rank. There are too many runs with different requirements. Example: turners in Dustbone explode everything, turners in Thids are dead weight. This goes for all tiers of play (say, replace DB with Than, Thids with Zio for instance). Another factor is synergy between classes and roles. There is a reason why we have "cores". A bard may not be top in any category, but will make everybody else shine. CoT may have the highest damage output of all tanks, but a lash or ranger will increase it even more. TLDR: Making such ranking for HG is a fun thought experiment, but there are way too many variables. If you were to consider even the simplest permutations of base classes and runs, you would end up not with a simple forum post, but a doctoral thesis Sits back, gets popcorn out and awaits "promised" Doctoral Thesis  |
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Post by simpetar on Oct 21, 2020 9:36:32 GMT
Sits back, gets popcorn out and awaits "promised" Doctoral Thesis Why, ofc, here you go: stop eating popcorn, eat more broccoli, punch them faster and harder than they punch you, and you will have 50-50 chance of winning! |
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Post by woqued on Oct 21, 2020 11:05:33 GMT
Laying groundwork for the doctoral thesis, basic stuff but maybe it helps someone.
Melee/ranged damage support, the Smash Homies
To hit, we need to breach AC and Concealment, and then to deal damage we need to breach Immunity and DR, with sufficient numbers.
- ranger (conceal drop, aoe, easy to apply)
- lash/shifterlash (dmg increase, requires hitting to apply), PM (if/when not instakilling, needs to penetrate sr)
- arcane (esf: abj conceal drop, epic => limited source, but if bosses or rare monsters are the problem works fine)
- Buff supporters - druid, cleric, bard, warchanter - restore means no pens, grants truestrike ab via fonts, keeps smash homies smashing, and buff their weapons. +16 GMW specialists: IoF from Cleric/Warchanter, Pariah, Herald. +15: Ench school Arcane, Bard. Elemental buffs: Arcane: Elec/Fire Bard: Sonic Cleric: Cold/Fire, Druid: Acid/Elec. Exotics: Pariahs are Magical, Divines Divine, Shadowdancers are Negative, selfish rangers selfbuff Positive.
Common combo: Ranger + Lash + BigSmash: drop their conceal and immunity, and hit those targets with something that excels only at hitting for best effect, after all their weapons are buffed with required/sufficient elemental/exotic/GMW buffs.
Example party: Druid + Pariah + Bard + Picker cleric + Paladin + Ranger + Lash for 7man party with ACEFS + DMP + GMW16 + Keen buffs, conceal drop, sr drop, save drop, arcane/cleric/druid/bard utility and epics, lash infliction, arcane/druid instakilling, rogue duties covered, 2x 2h damage dealers, 1x 1h damage dealer, 4-5 frontliners. Still 3 slots left to go in party to fill in whatever holes or whatever people want to play for niches; Assassin for further instakill, AA/Slinger for ranged dmg, more melee types for higher damage such as SD to add Neg buff + backline diver, more casters for better AoE damage, etc. But a party like this would likely benefit more from more melee damage dealers due to exceptional melee support backbone.
Caster damage support, the Pew Pew Homies
To do damage, we need to breach SR, then do damage with a type the enemy isn't Immune or sturdy against, and breach reflex save against evasion/imp evasion.
- SR drop: Druid (natures balance, frailty) > Arcane (psf abj, mord, bestow) > Bard (bestow) > lesser options - also aside this form theres also Persuade - Anything that persuades, often bard/pm - to drop SR further that stacks with nb/bestow/mord etc.
- Immunity/DR drop: lash/shifterlash/bfm/palemaster/... assassin to lesser extent, Heralds also do some but can be hard to utilize
- Dispelling: Various forms of A/B/C/D tools for greater dispel/mord to remove spell shields and other anti-caster buffs, in dire situations mord rods.
- C/B/Barb/RDD/PM/Pariah... Any save drop vs evasion/imp evasion targets
*Common combo: NB > Unleash, to improve effect vs individual targets have the frontliners be Bard(support)+Shifterlash to hold enemies at bay, and also boost team damage and deal with particularly high SR targets and to start whailing on the sturdier targets while trash evaporates around them.
*Common mistakes: going all in on weak inefficient AoE dmg (still big numbers, but lower efficiency). Best result: instakill everything that can be, and use focused dmg on sturdy/scary targets. Example: weird + cod + gusts/plode/pesticide/etc the AoE kb monsters, then focus on the sturdy stuff thats left such as Balors. More on this in TheRajahs sorc guide if interested. In AoE caster dmg parties, it is imperative that SR drop lands as soon and as widely as possible, stay frisky Druids.
Caster instakilling support, the Goner Homies
To instakill targets, we need to breach SR, win against their saves, and hit them with the right type of instakilling mechanism they're vulnerable to.
- SR drop as in above category
- Save droppers - bard/cleric exceptional at this, lesser ones include fear aura users (barb/rdd), pale masters, level drainers (arcane/pm/cleric), poison/IoM in Druid.
- Dispellers (ABCD, Mord rods, Paladin w/ Holy Sword, holy sword wand users) to remove anti-insta shields/spells/buffs
*Common combo: Dispels+NB+Curse > BTide + Prayer > whole spawn evaporated with everyone casting their instakills after the sr/save drop landed for efficient spell usage (don't waste your finite key spells before enemy save/srs have been dropped).
Instakilling playstyle requires knowledge on enemy vulnerabilities and patience for SR/Saves to drop before going ham, but actual execution is very easy and when done right quite satisfying.
Common mistake for supportive guys: not making sure key enemies are save/sr dropped, missing them makes the instakillers job hard or sometimes impossible.
*Common mistake for the instakillers: not prioritizing around your class strengths and team not playing around yours. Don't HB a target that the Arcane would kill, instead kill the target the Arcane can't kill with your Implosion/HB. Don't spam damage on the target that is about to be disintegrated, instead spam damage (via spells or melee/ranged characters) on the target that the Instakillers can't deal with, such as Malebranches, Balors, Chaos Rocs.
Example party: Bard + Druid + Cleric + Sorc to cover all/most forms of instakilling (death, mind, vs-crit, disintegrate, PWK, Banish, drain via poison/lvls/stat), save/sr drops and frontline(bard) with just 4 characters. Lacking in damage, so add in whatever deals damage to finish up Bosses and speed up the sturdy non-instakill targets of the run that may be difficult for the Arcane/Druid alone such as Balors, Death Knights, Higher Slaadi, Firstborns, Ichors etc. In easier runs, just the Sorc may well be enough for this job, or you could run a Battlebard or Warchanter instead. 6 Spots to fill in this job. For most runs, just adding in a single megasmasher such as CoT, Fighter, Paladin, etc will be enough at max levels to complete any pre-Limbo run, adding two such things would be enough for Limbo, adding 3 would be enough for Limbo p2, adding 3-4 and mixing up synergies to focus more on melee/ranged damage instead of caster damage will be enough for Limbo p2 Hard. Still 2-3 spots left!
Keeping everyone alive support, the Stay Safe Homies
To keep our guys alive, they need their HP not to reach 0 or within instakill range and keep them on their feet.
- Druid (restore, heals, epics, buffs, dodge ac, various other supportive measures, elemental immunity)
- Cleric (restore, heals, epics, buffs, dodge ac, armor/shield AC, exotic/esoteric immunity/dr, , tremendous oh-crap situation salvage potential via epics/kit)
- Bard (powers against STR/Dex stat checks, restore, heals, epics, physical immunity/dr, buffs, dodge ac, disable)
- Beefcake in front - protect homies from getting overrun. Any frontliner such as a monk, bard, cleric, taunter, warchanter, dwd, BBoD, Healing Spirit - various tiers in quality of beefcake frontline, but most important quality is "don't flop over easily" - quite gear/tag dependant to pull off while doing other things. Exceptions include: tank cleric, 1h/shield warchanter but warchanters' overlap and lack of some key bard features make them less popular.
- Disablers such as Turners, Druids, Shifters, Arcane, Cleric - various tools - debilitate target => they won't kill anyone if they're not doing their thing, and to buy time for your guys to do their thing. Most common tools are stoning (pariah/druid/shifter), lura phane (bard psk) stat/lvl drain(pm/arcane/cleric), turn (miracle/turner), antipathy(arcane/herald), paralyze(arcane), AoE kd via epics/spells(arcanes mostly, but also druids/bards, hellballs from RDD/BFM/DSM), stasis(arcane), entangle/web(arcane) - and to lesser extent melee/ranged using disarm/knockdown.
-+ Lifethreaders: really helpful in keeping alive when they know what they're doing under right circumstances, sometimes very adept at pulling off a team party kill all on their own.
*Common mistakes: not using your supportive stuff because you're busy doing something less important, like heartbaning something that would die to a Weird regardless of the HB 2 seconds later, or wasting all your spells/epics on spawns where they don't matter, and lacking them when you'd need them against a random spawn. Supportive guys primary focus at first should be learning when their stuff is needed and prioritizing their resources. Don't GR the Druid if there's nothing for him to kill, do GR him when you see 6 elite druid fume targets approaching. Not being prepared for the worst. Always be prepared for the worst type of random to drop on the party, and pick up the pieces of your party and put them back together.
And that's the end of my break. Will probably edit later for better readability, feel free to continue the groundwork for the doctoral thesis and fill in gaps
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Post by merkley on Oct 21, 2020 19:11:42 GMT
I have started the build linkage. I am going to try and leave it to 2 builds per Class, to help limit information overload. @prepared I could probably do the leg work on the forum posts/wiki posts. I will reach out to the DM's to see if I can get access, as I am sure they have better stuff to be working on. @tc I agree with all your points, especially the one about having fun. @simp Ya, I may have bitten off more than I can chew, but I like hearing the opinions of the community. Tier lists are created in every other game, so I figured, why not ours. woqued I think the "HG Class Tier Thesis" will require some calculus before it can be brought into consideration by the committee |
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