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Post by kingcamaro on Oct 29, 2020 0:19:05 GMT
Thoughts and Ideas is the name of the board, so here's a couple feat ideas.
Legendary Weapon Training: Requires Legendary Weapon Focus in any weapon. Grants Tier 2 BAB if your current BAB is lower. Paragon Weapon Training: Requires Legendary Weapon Training. Grants Tier 1 BAB if your current BAB is lower.
Edit: Thoughts behind the idea... so it would allow classes such as tank BFM, Rogues and the like to achieve the same tier as the usual CoTs, Fighters and Rangers that dominate the end game tank scene. CoTs for their survivability/immunes/restores, Fighters for their double concealment/Weapon Specialization and rangers fort their Invis Purge/bonus AC.
Presenting higher BAB for lower tiers may see more variety in the end game.
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Post by Pulpo on Oct 29, 2020 0:30:16 GMT
I think its a Solid idea that will help out alot of weaker class combos and even quasis. The LWF Will make it investment heavyish so we dont have pure casters running around with this. Additionally it doesnt SEEM to require alot of our precious Developer Time to implement. DEXER DRUID INCOMING WOOHOOOO!!!!
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Post by woqued on Oct 29, 2020 7:17:50 GMT
I think it's a step in the right direction but not enough, rather this idea integrated into LWF feat itself, or max require 1 LL feat, or have it integrated to PWF. These classes are already weaker in many ways than the current t1 babbers even if they get t1 bab. Increasing their LL / PL feat strain is not the best option if there is no equivalent strain on t1 bab classes. There is no reason to increase feat strain in LL/PL for these classes in this way. In particular the 2 feats and one of them being a PL feat requirement seems like it'd be too much.
Is there a reason to separate classes in Legendary content based on their BAB tiers? Personally I don't think it is necessary at all, but I could be wrong.
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Post by KnightErrant on Oct 29, 2020 15:39:24 GMT
This has been talked about for a long time (can't recall how much work it would be to implement) It's a pretty powerful boost and deciding how many feats and what level the feats would be would/will take some number crunching for sure.
KE.
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Post by kingcamaro on Oct 29, 2020 15:59:29 GMT
I'll consider your feedback Woki.
What I shall do over the weekend is theorycraft some builds over the weekend and see how it plays out.
The next 2 days I have tabletop DnD sessions so I am currently a bit busy.
Any others that want to give feedback, please do, so I can try to adjust. Thanks.
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Post by Lil' Mikey (Msowby2) on Oct 29, 2020 18:09:03 GMT
This has been talked about for a long time (can't recall how much work it would be to implement) It's a pretty powerful boost and deciding how many feats and what level the feats would be would/will take some number crunching for sure. KE. I don't think the concept itself is a powerful boost, especially because most of those classes that benefit already have a source of BAB increase (tensers, divine power etc), worst case they cloak up. I think the mere sacrifice of a paragon feat is enough to justify the power creep, if any. In fact I think even a legendary feat to grant it would be fine/ideal. Lets be honest, the classes categorized are not going to become 'S' tier with an AB increase, there are other fundamental issues that make the 1 BAB the best tanks/dmgers. Time to implement is another story and I'm sure the devs have their hands full with plenty of other things, mainly Mech. So in short I can't see this prioritized.
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Post by woqued on Oct 30, 2020 11:33:39 GMT
Current top hitting/ranged builds do not rely on their T1 BAB AB to reign supreme, it's all the other stuff that comes with it as well. Other builds do not catch up with just a BAB change, it just levels the playing field. Allows better use of KD/Disarm mechanics for rogues/assassins/shadowdancers/monks/castertanks etc.
Key notes: top splashes are FTR/WM/Harper/Monk/Paladin/Rogue/BG/Ranger(1). Splash options opened up: Harper/Monk/Rogue <- 2 of those, instead of always being reliant on 4+ pal/ftr/ranger/bg and/or 7wm minimum investment.
Feat investment punishes caster melee builds most, free of charge they also benefit perhaps the most from this change. To keep them exempt from this boon, could add a Tome of BAB that conflicts with Epic Spell Tomes, if that is the wish. But to be honest, I don't think it'd be too much of a disaster to allow caster tank meta to evolve from 35/4/1 types to also enable various 39/1, 36/4, 38/2, 37/2/1, 35/5 options. But there may be some OP build hidden there in some ways, so it might be better to somehow limit spell casters with this change.
Monks may need slight tuning later, but currently has no effect. They get no extra stats or extra damage, so they should stay in line regardless. Merely enables purist monks as opposed to them being currently completely obsolete. Post-change they'd still be worse than ftr/etc splashed ones, but they'd at least not be completely self-gimping.
Rogue Oppourtunity feat AB may need to be redacted or nerfed, but as stealthy and precise class, they could even have higher AB. Slight toning down may still be in order to keep them from breaching into WM tier in AB.
Classes that could REALLY REALLY use this change: RDDs, purist Rogues/Monks.
... All of the above thoughts assume NO FEAT COST WHATSOEVER. If it has a feat cost, all the currently non-t1 classes excluding caster tanks should receive benefits equal to feats such as the LL/PL it ends up costing them. That makes no sense to me. Are there any builds that would be op if they were T1 bab, or builds we simply don't wish to surface? Can you name some? There is a reason even T1 classes splash 4 ftr, 7 wm, 1-3 paladin - and that is because the splash benefits far outrank class level benefits, regardless of BAB - and as such the most glaring offenders are indeed the potential caster tank builds.
All I see from this change happening even without feat cost (again, excluding caster tanks) is more easy and varied balancing options in future endgame content where having high mob AC doesn't completely invalidate every non-T1 BAB class and force said classes to use Divine Power™ items even if their extra attack portion were to be removed. Stat check balancing helps us keep different stats and builds in line in endgame areas as well to incentivize different types of stat spreads in different areas. All I see are pluses and I don't see the need for feat cost besides somehow potentially hitting casters with it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2020 13:34:35 GMT
Some fantastic points have been made and I appreciate it. I think the best question we need to answer at this point is this:
Do we make it free and see how the landscapes potentially change and tweak as needed. Tweak potentially being make a spell tome / Pandect for it. Or do start there?
I think a large majority feel this is an issue and needs to happen. My reservation on free is just how much that could do for your caster tanks when they’re getting the extra weapon dice, now tier 1 AB, and what things could come out of this. I am not worried enough after hearing the ideas shared to not move forward though.
I think you make it free. Or a pandect. Ideally a pandect I think. That way you have a cost, but it’s a small one.
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Post by tomaan on Oct 30, 2020 16:17:12 GMT
I think you make it free. Or a pandect. Ideally a pandect I think. That way you have a cost, but it’s a small one. Seems like this is better as a "pick-one" benefit, so I'd vote for pandect too.
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Post by horbag on Oct 30, 2020 18:45:02 GMT
i too think that a pandect would be a great option for this
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Post by xakila on Nov 6, 2020 23:29:56 GMT
Ya pandect, and add improved combat casting to the pandect (since we're talking mostly about caster tanks anyways.)
Killing two birds with one stone is hood i hear!
*edit* darn cellphones I meant good, but hood I guess is close enough.
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