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Post by chirality on Jul 27, 2021 19:42:40 GMT
I don't think there's anything wrong with 1her divine tank. 2her mania is a thing for good reason (for players/accounts that can afford it) of course, but as far as 1h str tanks go, paladin gets a reasonable amount of goodies--enough to make for a fun and solid build (unless fun is determined solely by logger damage). Anything that doesn't have a 2h weap or two weaps isn't "worth" playing by some yardsticks, but those yardsticks aren't very friendly. Being a selfbuffer is a big perk nowadays, and paladin's other spellbuffs are probably second only to ranger in terms of being hella loaded. That said, 1her paladin that goes for smiting to boost their damage is certainly more popular and more common to see. I think one pro of this build concept is a higher AB than the typical smiting (non-"smiter") paladin that essentially sacrifices some str for cha. This AB would benefit disarming. I don't think I've seen a 1her paladin with full wm7 and 6 ftr levels before. It's interesting to invest that many non-CL levels--essentially a trade of "abo holy sword" CLs for the full package of ftr/wm goodies and no pre-epic feat squeeze (which is always aggravating on paladins ). As a prestige class, WM isn't a factor for xp pen, so there's no need to be concerned with balancing it out with fighter levels. It's also interesting to see taunt maxed (and disc/ca not) rather than any hide. I don't imagine disc is an issue 99.9% of the time, as for most str builds, with pen reduction, song, and gear. Still, it's uncommon to see this skill spread. Do you find much success with taunt on paragons and choice threats? +16 mod from cha...do you wear gear for it? 10 start dex is a bit of a shame for a x2 that doesn't need to invest the precious start points into wis that a x0 does. You list fighter as first in the progression, which would be ideal for starting with 10 wisdom, but instead you have 12 + demi stats to bring the 12 to 16, yet no extend spell to make use of the extra +2 points (I understand that as you explained, this is probably due to the history of the toon). Perhaps on an eventual reinc you could drop to 14 and gain +2 points. With asmo belt + paragon balance and 38 base dex, there's obviously no critical need for more dex, but then again, checks do scale on paragons by quite a bit, and 16 wis isn't doing much but extra slots (which, to be fair, I suppose is nice, especially without extend). Alternatively, an argument could be made to justify dropping balance with +2 dex (for -2 total check) and grab the 3rd adapt feat. All that is at the risk of defying the nature of this thread, of course Cool to see a 1her non-smiter high-splash paladin shared. This is the only such (BUR L80 x2) build posted, actually.
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Post by tomaan on Jul 27, 2021 22:44:27 GMT
Not sure how I came up with Pal27 - F6 - WM7 to be honest...think it was just a whim. I know I wanted 46 Pally CL for damage buffs but wasn't worried about GMW (there was always +15 or better on high level runs). I know I also wanted WM for big crits. If I were to reincarnate, I'd probably drop bastard sword for long sword and use the extra feat for Environmental Adaptivity 3.
Same on Dex - the original build was a x1 reincarnate so I had to set points aside for Wisdom. I also put extra points into INT to get Taunt (no, doesn't work all the time, but enough to be worth the investment). Reincarnating at x2 would free up some ability points and you could definitely live without Taunt. You could also drop a few points of Cha for more Dex, but I found that there were only a handful of situations where it was an issue.
Hide skill wasn't really a problem either. I mean it wouldn't hurt, but displacement + decent AC + crit immunity were enough to stay standing. Malad shield was perfect for this build too - you lose a point of AC but having auto restore (albeit lessor) really kept the afflictions at bay.
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Post by tomaan on Dec 2, 2021 7:03:07 GMT
You know what you almost never see? A dual-wield Maelephant Pally-Dwarven Defender-Fighter. And with that, I present my latest crazy unoptimized build: Pachydermus Rex (Pal26 - F12 - DwD2)Race: Dwarf Subrace: Maelephant Summary: This is actually Pachydermus Rex II - the first was a dex fighter/dwd...but that's not important right now. What is important is that Pachy gets 7 attacks per round at good-but-not-great ab, good physical damage, has tons of hps, crit immunity, and enough dex to make most Hells and Abyss checks. If you have a character with Healing Spirit, you can use him as a "click-it-and-forget-it" bot and take advantage of holy sword on each hand to breach away even the most stubborn of defenses. Rex was reincarnated at Demi x 2 - he still works from scratch, but you have to sacrifice points to wisdom if you want full spell capability. You're also big and ugly.... but that's all part of the fun! Advantages: Good AC, High HP, most dex checks, ~85 max phys damage on main hand, ~70 max on off-hand, Defensive Awareness 1 Disadvantages: AB could be a little higher, won't compete with DPS tanks, large size means -1 ac, nerfed hide skill Stats (start-race-sub-level-feats-class-demi-paragon-arti- Lvl80+16) STR: 14-14-18-34-38-42-48-50-50- 66DEX: 14-14-14-16-16-16-20-22-24- 40CON: 12-14-20-20-20-20-24-26-26- 42WIS: 10-10-10-10-10-10-14-16-16- 32INT: 14-14-14-14-14-14-18-20-20- 36CHA: 14-12-12-14-14-18-22-24-24- 40AC: 132...134 w/girding (med armor). 135...137 w/girding (light armor) AB: 105 Saves: F: 84 R: 75 W: 73 Leveling: take fighter at level one so you don't have to start with 11 Wis....rest is up to you Just be sure to take Fighter on an epic feat level for Epic Weapon Specialization Artifact: Dex (Con or Str works too!) Regular Feats:1: Blooded 3: Dodge (DwD req.) 6: Weapon Focus 9: Improved Critical 12: Cleave 15: Div Might 18: Great Cleave 21: Two-Weapon Fighting 24: Imp. Two-Weapon Fighting 27: Ambidexterity 30: Great Str 1 33: Great Str 2 36: Armor Skin 39: Epic Weapon Specialization 42: Leg Skill Aff: Tumble 45: Leg Skill Aff: Listen 48: Leg Weapon Focus 51: Leg Weapon Specialization 54: Great Str 3 57: Great Str 4 60: Metamagic: Extend Spell 63: Paragon Weapon Focus 66: Paragon Weapon Specialization 69: Paragon Balance 72: Environmental Adaptivity 1 75: Environmental Adaptivity 2 78: Environmental Adaptivity 3 Fighter Feats:1: Blind-fight 2: Exotic Weapon Prof 4: Power Attack 6: Weapon Specialization 8: Greater Weapon Focus 10: Overwhelming Critical 12: Devastating Critical Pal Feats:23: Epic Weapon Focus 26: Epic Prowess Skills:Concentration: 25-30 Discipline: 55 Listen: Max Hide: remaining Tumble: 60 CA: 40 CW: 40
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Post by simpetar on Dec 2, 2021 15:56:44 GMT
Are you sure you can take extend spell at lvl 60? Your wisdom is still 10, so you can't cast any spell which is the prerequisite for metamagic. And you can't benefit from demi bonuses before 60 either, that exploit was fixed yeaaaars ago.
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Post by tomaan on Dec 2, 2021 17:26:42 GMT
Are you sure you can take extend spell at lvl 60? Your wisdom is still 10, so you can't cast any spell which is the prerequisite for metamagic. And you can't benefit from demi bonuses before 60 either, that exploit was fixed yeaaaars ago. Good question! You can actually take it as a feat with no caster levels (or at least I could as a lvl 3 fighter). Must be an undocumented server hack, because none of the other metamagics are available at that point.
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Post by simpetar on Dec 2, 2021 19:30:10 GMT
oki, makes sense
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Post by desocupado on Dec 3, 2021 2:26:23 GMT
You could get more shield ac from constitution than from charisma. That paladin maelphant would benefit more from fighter or defender cc, no?
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Post by woqued on Dec 3, 2021 8:24:35 GMT
You could get more shield ac from constitution than from charisma. That paladin maelphant would benefit more from fighter or defender cc, no? Pal cha bonus is for saves (pal), dmg (divine might, pala) and paladin spell synergy (paladin), not ac in this case. Also has high-ish fighter lvl for honing and weapon spec, CC would give other stuff, not AC.
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Post by desocupado on Dec 3, 2021 10:33:17 GMT
You could get more shield ac from constitution than from charisma. That paladin maelphant would benefit more from fighter or defender cc, no? Pal cha bonus is for saves (pal), dmg (divine might, pala) and paladin spell synergy (paladin), not ac in this case. Also has high-ish fighter lvl for honing and weapon spec, CC would give other stuff, not AC. I expressed myself poorly, what I intended to say was - given mealphant bonuses, is having 26 levels of paladin more interesting than maximizing either dwarf defender (phys resistance/immunity, constitution bonus and ac) or fighter (epic dodge, concealment, 13 damage-ish wheatstone, self immute, feats and dexterity). And of course lower charisma means lower bonuses, which neither maelphant or dwarf base race help. My comment towards ac was due paladin's divine shield feat being a enabler for not wearing a shield (but only on a rapier wit smiter build). But then getting the same respectable 16 shield ac would require 74 charisma. So I was quite off on that. I wonder if it can be worth to make a paladin with Legendary Battle Hardening IV to capitalize on high constitution.
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Post by woqued on Dec 3, 2021 13:38:36 GMT
Pal cha bonus is for saves (pal), dmg (divine might, pala) and paladin spell synergy (paladin), not ac in this case. Also has high-ish fighter lvl for honing and weapon spec, CC would give other stuff, not AC. I expressed myself poorly, what I intended to say was - given mealphant bonuses, is having 26 levels of paladin more interesting than maximizing either dwarf defender (phys resistance/immunity, constitution bonus and ac) or fighter (epic dodge, concealment, 13 damage-ish wheatstone, self immute, feats and dexterity). And of course lower charisma means lower bonuses, which neither maelphant or dwarf base race help. My comment towards ac was due paladin's divine shield feat being a enabler for not wearing a shield (but only on a rapier wit smiter build). But then getting the same respectable 16 shield ac would require 74 charisma. So I was quite off on that. I wonder if it can be worth to make a paladin with Legendary Battle Hardening IV to capitalize on high constitution. I figured it was for flavour and ease of building, more so than optimal. The thread is titled crazy unoptimized builds; It accomplishes that well - and the paladin CC one is the most interesting for the player, in terms of epics and utility (holy sword/secrets/buffs). The fighter one would probably be the most reliable one in terms of fire and forget. Why: Sonic/div dmg adds up to 2d12 son 2d12 div over counterparts of ftr/dwd, and divine might gives compareable amount of dmg compared to a fighter CC honing (since this one has high ftr lvls anyway to get basic honing). Low amount of feats in LL/PL tier means the paladin approach gives us some saves over the other options; free cha giving all saves and dmg is nice. Pala CC is less evasive than either of the alternatives. Fighter CC would be the sturdiest of the bunch due to op concealment options, but would end up having lower saves, immunities and damage due to lack of self weapon buffs. But what's the point of having high con and immunities if you're not gonna take some hits? Be a maelepheMan! But again, defensively, the fighter one has the greatest evasive tools of the bunch, parry conceal + edodge op op. DwD would have highest phys immunities, but paladin also gets some phys imms and a big chunk of exo imms on top. Fighter CC would lack crit immunity over the other two, although paladin crit imm isn't exactly permanent either - though paladin can give it to another person in a jam with some tactical ely glove usage. All in all, all options have something going for them. ... All that said, the stats on this thing look quite miserable until Demihood; the fate of paladins trying to be clever with builds. Also don't know what the Hide has to do with anything, it is quite hard to put skill points in with this class spread and feat selection.
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Post by tomaan on Dec 3, 2021 13:58:52 GMT
woqued is correct - I just wanted to see if it could be done with any level of viability..."the fate of paladins trying to be clever with builds". Really needs at least demi x1.....x2 is better. The first version of this build was Hound Archon ...still needs demi x1 but much more balanced in terms of stats. That said, there's an intrinsic value to hearing, your big ugly elephant butt say "here comes the pain!" in the Berger voice! desocupado - Pally is for damage, saves and party utility - one of the primary goals/functions of this build is to breach 7x per round. I tried it originally with Blackguard, but...well, you know (pulling the plug on Blackguards....I just can't save em!). I have mixed feelings about Divine Shield....it's not the most efficient shield AC (only get 1/2 cha bonus) and I'm a bit concerned about what the damage kb does against mobs with their own kb. fighter CC is definitely the best if you want something that could potentially take you to end game - in fact, the original idea behind this build was Fighter/DwD/PDK. I may revisit that one day, although it would probably be with Howler. COT CC was pretty interesting, but I couldn't get CHA high enough to be worth while. May revisit those some day too. As woqued mentioned, this thread is my post-it note ( they were invented by accident), and it's not without some level of conceit: maybe one of these builds will develop into a community standard or give others ideas they might not have considered.
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Post by simpetar on Dec 3, 2021 14:42:39 GMT
and I'm a bit concerned about what the damage kb does against mobs with their own kb. Oh, straight up: it hurts (if you don't reduce or cover relevant kb) When, say, a hamatula hits you, you take damage from both the hit itself and also its kb. It gets even worse when you run into something that heals on div (orthons, greensteel machines, mollies / Harthoon's little helpers etc.) But still better than not having the AC in the first place.
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Post by tomaan on Dec 17, 2021 19:28:06 GMT
Didn't realize this thread is over a year old! At any rate, I think I'm done with crazy builds for now - Pachydermus Rex will be the last Still, it's been a fun way to get back into the flow of the server after a long layoff and a lot of changes. Here are my final build rankings (based on achieving build goals and party utility): 1) Baney Tank (BG26 - SOR13 - M1)While a bit squishy early, when this build hits it's stride, look out. With 5d of Fire, Electric, and Cold and 3d of Div, it absolutely shreds everything it faces...even after the 2h damage nerf. With AoE Vampiric Touch, Tenser's bonus HP and crit immunity he can really take a licking....just don't get amnied! Baney Tank has been updated to what should be end-game-ready. Will post final version in the quasi-class forums at some point. 2) Brave Sir Tomaan(Pal27 - F6 - WM7)Outstanding sword-n-board tank with high survivability and surprisingly good damage output. Not gonna lie...he's not the most fun build to play, but will certainly take you wherever you want to go on the server. 3) Tomaanosaurus Rex (xDD30-Barb8-Brd2)The first time I saw a Dragon running around town on this server I thought.... OHHHH YEAHHHHHH!!!!! I've been playing them ever since and, to put it politely, they've varied in effectiveness over the years. With the 12-1-20 update, however, they may well rival lash as a front-line support tank. And you're a dragon! 4) Pachydermus Rex (Pal26 - F12 - DwD2)End result of my non-ranger-dual-wield experiments. Takes a little work to get right, but is ridiculously hard to kill and dishes out more damage than I thought it would. Niche build for stylistic reasons to be sure, but if you like that niche or that style, it's really not a bad option. tie: 6) Rumppuv Steelskynne III (DwD18-F12-M10) and Taz (Barb21 - F18 - DwD1)I tried to do something with DwD and Barbarian. I really did. Honest. But I'm done with both. Neither of these builds "suck" per se....they're just not really worth the time/effort to play. There are too many other build options that can do what they do. If I had to recommend one, I'd probably say Rumpp as a click-it-and-forget-it bot. Draw Foes + crit imm + healing spirit can take a LOT of heat off the rest of the group. 7) Everybody Loves Tomaan (R38 - A2)While not a bad build overall, this is the ultimate "master of none". Works, but there are better options for what it does. Still, turned out to be useful a few times when we needed a searcher/picker. Thanks everybody for your feedback and indulging me in this thread (and enduring these builds on server!)
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