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Post by woqued on Nov 16, 2020 15:13:16 GMT
however, keep in mind that a clamor of "this is holding me back from enjoying the game, this is driving away new players, this is preventing new players from progressing, this is interrupting our runs, this is killing our party formation, this is going to make me quit, this is going to make me take a break if it's not changed asap" generally is received with a pretty jaded and stoic lukewarm reception by "old guard" players and "management", and it's not due to jealousy or resentment of things being easier for the new kids on the block than "back in their day", but more due to (again) their philosophical outlook on the game's economy and lifetime. Fair enough, though I hope the arguments for/against have been more wide and visible than temper tantrum quit threats thus far, that wasn't the key idea behind my posts at least (heck, I seldom play, who cares if I play - maybe preps case is different xd). And again, regarding the history behind your post otherwise; the timeline and investment into the game has significantly shifted from those days. For BURs -yeah... For XRs? Granted, OP was talking about BURs so maybe I'm derailed and deranged. I wonder what type of post they'll make when they reach the XR grind and double the cost on those.
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Post by desocupado on Nov 16, 2020 15:15:11 GMT
Requiring two books for subrace upgrade is very frustrating for "poor" people. I'd think the overflow of BUR books from desert run drops is long gone. (it was that easy to farm bur subraces) Losing xp and having a timer to reincarnate is also frustrating - specially for the first hell's worth character. Alleviating Reincarnation timer with gold would be a decent gold sink. The 60+ game is too massive to incentivize people replaying the Pre-ll and LL content due subrace upgrade. Even BUR gear is being considered trash due the existence of XR loot. Think of how pointless set pre-60 lot became (and UR- loot).
Truth be told the newer people should be asked how they feel at those points of subrace upgrade and reincarnation. Personally I think rolling a character should be faster instead of such massive time sink (between tags/xp). This would increase the demand for gear for all players (as they can afford having more characters, thus demand more gear and consumables).
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Post by boroie on Nov 16, 2020 15:26:07 GMT
Thats a really interesting post. Thanks for sharing. So basically: plus ça change, plus c'est la même choseSo does it just need a new vocal minority to inflict their worldview upon the beaten down vets before change happens? Or will things just continue as they have? I can totally see why the various changes may have been made at one time or another, each an attempt to change or fix an issue perceived as a problem. Times change though, as does your playerbase. Another thing to consider is that modern gaming is different in pacing and structure to when NWN or BG, or games like that were first around. I think this server has done amazing things, I only wish I'd found it 15 years ago. But maybe an accommodation could be reached? If you remove the double book requirement, but keep the level requirements, then that lowers the barriers to progression without blowing them away completely. New players still need to find or buy the BURs they want, and also could have the benefit of people trying lots of new class types without needing the BURs first, as they can then upgrade them if the toon works out. Now you have new players basically creating sorcs or whatever to get to 40 and sit waiting for a book, or you have throwaway characters created. I have a bunch of low immo characters that I'm not willing to pay a 2 book cost to upgrade, but 1 book I'd definitely think about it. Instantly more character diversity. Then you also have the XR tier who at least can use the book they grinded (ground?) so hard to get in the first place. Lowering from 80 to 75 or 70 to use the book is a different, if not unrelated argument.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2020 16:38:08 GMT
And my post wasn’t a threat, it’s just my reality, as it is with others. As mentioned by Boroie, the pacing of games is way different. As I have mentioned the pacing, investment and resources is different. The landscape for HG and NWN as a hole is markedly different. I think ignoring those differences is only going to hurt all of us.
We can make changes, and I think Boroie hits on a solid middle ground on how to address this. I think if you ease the experience for all players you get a huge win. Having such considerable barriers around one of the key draws to our servers and community is folly. Let’s work to address that.
We have a fantastic mixture of veterans and newer players currently active. This spectrum includes newer players who have dove into Hell and Abyss in some capacity so we really have a great snapshot of what all is around.
Making changes while intimidating will serve to benefit all of us. Figuring out how best to do so is the key. Chirality’s post brings up a ton of useful information and very real ideas to consider and what’s taken place historically.
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Post by starcore on Nov 16, 2020 20:59:06 GMT
Just want to chime in here as a newer player...
The BUR races were seen as almost a necessity for me early on, as most of the builds that were up to date, viable and optimized for endgame used them, and the desire from me, was to be able to join in on the higher tier content.
Having to rely on random drops to get these felt almost unattainable. Needing two was almost unimaginable. Making a new character, or waiting 3 months when I only had ONE character would almost certainly lead to me quitting and not coming back.
I'm super thankful that some of the vets gifted me books, not only to unlock the races, but also to upgrade them (big thanks to goon and simp for the genie books)
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Post by xakila on Nov 16, 2020 23:20:25 GMT
For me, looking at the long term, it's a matter of time investment. There are ways around the system, going to a cheaper bur then to your optimal race, but in the example I'm facing say of going from kenku to half celest would mean switching to something like erinyes (and losing a feat) and waiting another 3 months after that (having reinced into kenku already counting down my first 3 month timer) to go half-celest (when I get my hands on one, I still don't have the gold to afford one). Looking down the road for XR's even a newer player like me wonders if it's really worth it or just play a weaker druid til I get an xr race and make a new druid for there. I think that's part of the thing that makes me feel bad/off about the way it is now, there are hoops you can jump around to work around it, but it kinda punishes you in a way for the invested time when it would possibly be less invested time to just remake and throw away the effort you already put in. A player like me is going to still put in the time and make a variety of toons, and just play for the fun of the game and such, but the two book system is kinda a nutpunch in character progress for me, that mainly affects those starting as a new player. Those who know enough about game economics to gather the resources quicker than it would take to start a new toon are already going to have access to those races to upgrade if they wish. The two book system doesn't encourage more play time from me, but is discouraging. I'm the type who likes a variety of toons to work/play with, but as is investing time into characters that it's going to cost me double to upgrade rather than wait on having better races to start with is sort of a buzzkill. This really affects players who only play one account, but those who have played a while or who multibox don't really feel the effects much since they can start with bur and go up. Personally I have no problem with the level req for races on account... cause that's a progression thing... but the two book system feels like backtracking a way. It also limits my options of what I want spending time on, post 60 runs are often time of day dependant in my experience, post 60 development is a big time investment on when you can get into the runs etc... sometimes it flows sometimes it can be stagnant... but considering how long the post 60 game is compared to pre 60 it seems like an inefficient activity developing a toon that's going to take me twice the resources to upgrade (not including the time between reincarnations). But if there's nothing going on for the toon I play to progress what am I spending my time on? As is the upgrade from open/secret races to UR seems pointless, unless you want to have a bunch of middling toons waiting on reincarnations that are going to cost twice as much, or want to enjoy the pre 60 game more. So in a way, the two book upgrade system does serve to devalue secret/UR races from my perspective, and as much as rakshasa/kenku are viable for the post 60 game the thought of double upgrade costs causes hesistation in my mind of investing too much time in them rather than waiting to get an at least passable bur to start from there to limit the amount of reincarnation timer/book investement it's going to take to upgrade them rather than not invest the time on it. Don't get my wrong, sometimes the early game/ll levels are fun being more casual (and I know a few players who prefer that range by the looks of it). I understand having the carrot, and the constant goals of progression and achievement, are what give a game longevity. Personally though as a newer player who's spent quite a bit of time here since I found the place, I feel the two book system is more of a bummer feel bad aspect of the game that affects newer players disproportionally. And seeing the workarounds possible, and the way subs work in general, I feel the system detracts more the HG experience for newer players while being inconsequential to those who have been around for a while or work around it with multiple accounts (which granted is in a way a reward for playing a while). So in my mind the question is, why make the new player experience worse and make character investment feel kinda icky if you're not starting ahead of the game? Level requirements to open subs on an account? Awesome... a sense of development. The ability/need to find and trade for more powerful races to be stronger? Awesome... progress and achievement. Ability to reincarnate and upgrade/tweak our characters rather than starting from scratch once you've spent over 100 hours on it? Bonus for those who don't have as much time to play the game or have put a lot of time into their character.
-A (long) timer between reincarnations? Okay, well at least we can reincarnate to change build and can upgrade to new subraces rather than scrap the invested time in... so not so bad (even if it feels like forever for a new player without many toons to play... I mean 3 months?) In my mind taking 6 months to upgrade your char from open/secret to better BUR (by doing the BUR hop hurdle through cheaper burs) just to work around a needless double book limitation is feel bad.
The feeling of having decide to either start from scratch/throw away the time you've invested in or pay double to achieve the power you would have from starting from scratch from your new starting point? Doesn't feel that awesome once you've invested much in the post 60 game, from my perspective. I know for me as much of the hells/abyss I've done I've never seen half-celest or radgen drop (let alone roll high enough to get it) and haven't gotten to the point I'm soloing any bur dropping areas, and I think I've gathered about 5 maybe 6 bil gold total in my time playing here (granted I don't know the market side of the game yet). And as super freaking generous as people have been in hooking me up, the thought of having to pay double and get two of these books to upgrade rather than start again from scratch is a pretty big bummer. The two book req is a poor/new player problem (pre xr), but do we need to have it? Does it add more than it detracts? or does it do harm in the area's it's supposed be be helping? If it's supposed to be for new player retention... is it working for that or is it possibly hurting that? By the time new players are getting through hells and abyss they are probably getting burs as is (even if most aren't that meta), so the level requirement to read the books is enough imho, and by that point seeing the post 60 game they are planning on making new toons seeing what works and what doesn't if they are the type of player who are gonna get into HG a lot (like me). My suggestion to balance out the intent and get rid of the dirty feeling parts? Keep the level requirements the same... still to be a certain level to read the books to unlock the races for that account...41 UR (who plays UR races outside of newbs? and who plays secrets outside 2-3 of them?) 60 Bur, 80 XR... BUT any character of the pre-reincarnated level required to read the book can reincarnate into it if it's unlocked on that account, or if you still want a penalty for reincarnating into a race rather than starting at it (but why?) ... tie upgrading to UR to immo win, BUR to demix1, upgrading to XR at limbo win. Better to reward people for time/effort invested on a toon rather than make them pay extra for time invested is the way I look at it. All together though in my (and apparently others) opinion, would be far easier to just remove the two book penalty on reincarnations and get rid of the feel bad aspect all together. It seems to detract more than it adds, the detraction is feelable while the "positives" seem more theoretical imho.
And that's my perspective of it, as a newer player looking at the long term as I've seen it. Current upgrade system is a bit discouraging, and eventually facing the xr grind (a point I want to get in the game) I expect to face it again but worse after I get the BUR races/toons I'd want. The grind creates longevity, but redoing the grind for an upgrade of a stronger version of the same results or doubling the upgrade costs isn't appealing.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2020 23:22:24 GMT
It seems to me that if people continue to be generous in gifting books (this has been a thing for a looooong time), then this really isn't a problem. However, a free gift may or may not inspire the player. There are vets that have loads of meh BUR books to get newer players started and then the only barrier is time and effort (lvl 60 to use and you gotta get there). I have given book out but I am not sure if any of those players are still here...
The issue is that most new players want to acquire the 5 golden BUR books (HC, RadGen, HG, Koly, Shard) [Heck, I remember winning my first RadGen and I am sure people in that party were like... what did she do to deserve that! I also remember trading portable holes for an HC and feeling like I was in absolute heaven!] Giving those books out for free is not as easy to do because vets who have been here a long time worked hard to achieve that success and bypassing that work feels like casting pearls (unless you are using it as bribery to farm 100bios.sos.ws/some form of... if I give you this then you are my indentured servant/you owe me now, and you will be my druid slave for life!)
I have always thought that allowing vets to give high valued items away is just shooting themselves in the foot when those players lose interest. There is something to be said for earning juicy baubles. But people obviously play for different reasons.
I do think that shifting XR race to level 70 would be a nice motivation because attainment would not seem so impossible, however, I also think people should work their way into limbo to be able to access those items. More people in Limbo (or when Mechanus comes out) would be so nice. Though, now I just got a yucky feeling recalling the limbo slog.... so maybe its not so nice.
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Post by starcore on Nov 16, 2020 23:43:30 GMT
The big thing for me, is that so many builds don't work without access to the BUR races. Every single time I've tried to adapt something to work for a different sub I've fucked it up badly. And I hate to be a detriment to to a run by having a sub optimal build (a cleric that is not tanky enough for example, and cant search even with a rogue splash). I don't want to be dragged through runs... I want to contribute to the success. That is what keeps me interested in playing. My goal is killing bosses, not finding books!
So... upon obtaining a premium BUR sub for the character, I immediately think YES! Now I can actually follow a build properly and be less useless.
But, due to the double book requirement, my options are:
Abandon all my progress into this character and start again (Damn does this feel painful! I'm super invested in this character at this point, and having to grind all those tags/demi again sounds like a pain)
Use a cheaper, non optimal sub to upgrade with, and have to come up with another build variation, that I'll probably fuck up again, and then wait 3 months before I can use the new shiny sub.
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Post by dagoon on Nov 16, 2020 23:48:25 GMT
More people in Limbo (or when Mechanus comes out) would be so nice. Though, now I just got a yucky feeling recalling the limbo slog.... so maybe its not so nice. Funnily enough I’ve had a rant in guild discord channel about getting beaten down with how much of a slog with little to no noticeable progression I feel limbo is.... Just tonight
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Post by Methes on Nov 17, 2020 0:01:22 GMT
An idea - make reading a subrace book do two things at once: 1) Unlock this subrace for your account if you don't have it yet so that you can start a new character with it AND 2) Add a reincarnation charge to your account for this particular subrace that is used when upgrading a character during reincarnation.
That way when you first get a book and use it, you can immediately upgrade your character that you have been playing. You can't upgrade all of your other characters though, you'd have to get a book for each.
This gets rid of the salty feeling "I got the subrace book I've wanted all along for my character! Yay! But now I still need a second one so the first one doesn't really feel like an achievement, nay." while retaining the price for your other characters and mainly doesn't allow multiboxers to freely upgrade all of their characters. If you invest into several characters, e.g. a tank, druid and sorc, you need just one book for each. If you, for some reason, start multiple sorcerers right away, you still need multiple books.
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Post by starcore on Nov 17, 2020 0:04:52 GMT
Personally I think it would be cool if there was something that could be used as an alternative to a second book (e.g. asmo set drop or free token on achieving demi or something like that, that could be substituted instead of a 2nd book to do a bur upgrade for any race)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2020 0:25:44 GMT
Woqued suggested that and have it be a drop from a run that’s set. Either spawning everytime, or like a secret. Pop a few runs and got it and done. But, nowhere near where it is now for needing two books.
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Post by xakila on Nov 17, 2020 2:24:15 GMT
As to the set item that replaces the second book, while it seems like a Much better alternative to the current system, it doesn't completely answer why there should be an extra cost at all in my mind to upgrading an invested character over remaking a better version of the same character after you've obtained the race. I would totally support it if it was a set item (tiamat drop!), much less random than two copies of an already rare/expensive book.
But from a new player perspective, it just feels bad to have to do anything extra to upgrade your chars racetier after you've unlocked the race already, especially if you don't get the right race into the 70s. It's like being penalized for being new, and having to pay twice as much for playing a char before you should. It doesnt make the character progression feel forwardly fluid in other words, especially since most pre BUR races are "less than good" for the endgame.
It feels disheartening, and discourages investment in characters until you get the right race to start with. That affects newer players like myself the most, especially having spent time developing and learning a core druid (very feat/dc dependant on). Personally double book cost isnt going to get me to play more, rather its going to keep me from investing time into classes i don't have a suitable race for, hence lowering the amount of time I play. You already have limits on reincarnation such as classes and what not. I have a 60 Rakshasa sorc i'd like to learn more that won't go far due to the double book cost of upgrading, instead will prob be a farming toon til i get a book to make a sorc worth investing (to me, not liking to repeat the same efforts) the full effort into. Would not be an issue if not for the double book cost.
If you can roll a new char as a bur if you've unlocked it, and you can reinc into a bur from any other bur (which you already had to get the book and level to 60 and read), how is the extra book anything but frustration and a hoop for new players compared to being able to upgrade tiers just from having already read the book on the account? It's still a power upgrade, and in some cases you backtrack into bur worse than say rajshasa just to upgrade the arbitrary tier level. It's like being penalized for investing too much in to your first char(s) until you luck into a long term race, and discourages/penalises those very same players the system is in place to retain
I'd be willing to spend a lot of time playing a developing new toons, but investing in chars that i know are going to obsolete or twice as expensive to upgrade as a new toon?
It's the difference between "i want it now, and now that i have it i'm bored.. " And "If I don't wait it's gonna cost twice as much or Im going to have to restart and I'm kinda bored of not doing it cause I'm waiting".
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Post by rhodar on Nov 17, 2020 3:42:20 GMT
Look, I'm going to keep this succinct, 'cause I'm not grinding, I'm watching my Bears on Monday Night Football. Just ignore the screeching whinging of this guy ^ and you'll be okay. By HG standards he's literally experienced no inconvenience and his complaints should be seen in that context.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2020 4:26:55 GMT
I think the issued raised is legitimate. But, I also think that you need a balance. For BUR subs I think an item is fine in conjunction with a single book. For XR subs one could argue even an item wouldn't be needed, but to keep parity across the board you throw in the item. And the item would be a HUGE win over a second book because it will be a set drop from a run. Make it a run that will help other players... Nessus? Only drops on an Abyss demon lord? Something. It's like resetting all of your vestiges... you collect all this power and want to reset, go complete a chore and it's done. The work is getting the book, grinding an item that is a set drop isn't a big ask, but tying it to a run ensures runs keep going.
I don't think or agree that this change will hurt the lowbie experience at all, especially at the XR tier where you'll be getting new characters out of the wood works. It is a win for everyone. A huge win.
The items can be collected from a lot of the trash LL runs. Dulv, Loca, Beholders, Rona, mayby throw in Elysium. Bringing these items unlocks the light. Done. Runs for players, wins for veterans, all around happy. Make the items guaranteed drops so 1 run each. Boom boom.
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