Post by woqued on Dec 1, 2020 16:51:29 GMT
! highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/26300/update-2020-12-01 so that happened 
So wild! I know some of you will probably only tunnelvision in on the nerfs, but I would prefer if you kept unnecessary whining to a minimum. It is good to point out misgivings/grievances, but it would be better not to harp on them if possible.
With that out of the way, Been a long time coming! Highlights for me:
Weakling buffs!:
- Heralds get epics (Conj/Ench) - finally! Druid or Sorc? I'm leaning towards sorc but we'll see, druid psk petrification imm stripping is extremely strong as well, just needs something to work with (caster shifter, pariah). Not sure this will make them good, but it will remedy a large hole in their kit.
- Smiting deals damage! Still lacking in ab, worried about paragon areas if ab cap stays at 100 for such a long cd ability, paragon buff to AC hurts already. 40 paladin looks like a decent option now nonetheless, Midget paladins also get access to LSA:Listen through Blind Fight means we may be onto something here!
- Assassin will be... Actually very good?!?! Assa parry reduction is very, very valuable and further amplified with Paragon level DC boost. +4 Dex in LLs helps with durability, DC/AB for dex assassins... Honing offhands, yummy... Looks like we got ourselves a class! PDK is just extra on top for the aspiring Assassins who can stomach losing access to WM splash or weapon spec from Ftr on 29 assa builds. Losing that 30 class perk DC isnt as bad now with the increased DC.
- Zens got a little bit less Zen and got some sexy muscles & athletics on top - STR / DEX also work for Ranged rangers! +4 DC capped out, even more if going actual Zen, and Con drain... Beware, crit vulnerables! Even classic midget 2h ranger will now shoot with big DC. DC might even be a bit too high now honestly, I woulda liked to see some different types of changes to Zen Rangers - DC wasn't and isn't their issue. I can only assume this change was made with future Paragon content in mind with special mobs handcrafted for the high DC of Zens to give them very special value in certain runs. Regardless, perks galore.
- DDs got some utility love, GIs got a lot of love. Will see how that plays out, still not gonna touch GIs, filthy mongrels.
- Divine Slingers got major dmg boost? Not perma-healing divine healers? Access to DP + Rapid Shots... Are they actually.. kinda ok now...? Strong even? Still lacking in spells that count for Slingers, but still.
- Lifethreaders got a whole bunch of indirect goodness on top of the small boost to DC in Paragon Levels. Listen opened up, top dog classes got bummed out, self-buffers still strong. Corruptor of Fate getting access to listen now on Cleric CC threaders is pretty big for them. 26/14 spread looks very intriguing now, but probably still rely on KB resistance from Herald or Sorc/Pariah with Enchantment paragon, or items with HalfKB modifier.
- RDDs are STRONG - the fear aura at high paragon levels is a real contender, reaching almost BT tiers without checking vs SR. They've also been suffering of lack of good splashing options, enter PDK! Helps with everything they ever needed. I wouldn't be surprised to see RDDs and Assassins team up for content where it is feasible now, embodying DR drop on crit immunes and crit vulnerables rapidly perishing under Assassin assault.
- BKs got a reminder that hey we exist try us out. They look fairly decent with new weapon buff mechanisms in general, also very much helped by LSA:Listen opened up for subrace variety. They should make for fairly sturdy 1h frontliners with decent damage from Tensers and self-buffed weapon buffs, or 2h with monk splash and BG Hide.
- Warchanters didn't get a specific buff of any kind, but the nerf on Divine Power items means their casted Haste went up in value significantly. Granting attacks to team is big, I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the top dog dmg dealers replaced with WC now as part of the team to make up for the lost attacks.
Honorary mention: Monk weapons got buffed...? Wait, no they didn't! But more access from teammates to DR reduction, Heralds with access to half-kb paragon, 2h nerf, attack amount nerfs, access to PDK... Maybe they did indeed get buffed? May not be using CC monk for it, but sure looks interesting. And the fistmonks are happy about their endgame weapons finally being implemented.
NotWeakling buffs:
Weapon Masters get half-KB at WM30. This is BIG, Humongous! Obvious downside of not being able to access Weapon Specialization with it unless subrace enables it, but still pretty big. I foresee 30 wm builds using monk levels and monk attack progression as future interesting builds; or just dualwielding good weapons, or splashing Harper Scout/PDK with very WM-Feat heavy subraces.
Harper Scouts got their boots slot back!! Welcome y'all to the E-Dodge/Breach Boots show while retaining +2 attacks. DP cloak/belts being nerfed also means Harper attacks are comparatively more valuable than before. I expect to see Harper Scout soar in popularity for those who can splash it in the T1-BAB class tier - Paladins, Fighters, WMs, Barbarians, even Monks still - and for the inferior folk, PDK will likely be a more popular choice. Overall, a big plus nonetheless.
Blindfight now qualifies for LSA:Listen PARTY PARTY IN DA HOUSE! Yes! Aww yeeeee - opens up non-half elven / elven subraces to classes without Listen. This is huuuge. Major beneficiaries include: Bane Knights, CC:Cleric Lifethreaders, non-Half-Elven Battleclerics and Divine Tanks as majorly happy folk. Includes midget smiters! Wowowow!
Indirectly possibly even TOO happy folk: Staffmasters and Battleclerics. Selfbuffing weapon buff from before and now nerf on 2h and attack numbers, should do comparably well now, maybe even too well...? We'll see!
THE BIG NERF. 40% multiplier on 2h dmg to 20%, and item-buffed DP source from 45 to 41, meaning our top tier damage dealers have been stripped of a significant amount of damage, for very good reason. Also seems like DP/Tenser/SoV don't seem to grant +2 extra attacks for now at 55, so that might hurt the 35+ base caster lvl casters and quasis a bit, but that may be necessary with these changes. If they retain all their extra attacks, they may be too strong (BattleClerics in particular as potential prime offenders remaining on top).
Overall, the nerf is a welcome change long time coming, time will tell how it plays out. Downside: I think the combination of weapon buff changes + attack number nerf + 2h nerf has probably hit level 41-Hells/Abyss content doing folk who use DB weapons and don't selfbuff weapon buffs and don't have XR weapons a bit too hard.
It is worth remembering that 20% is still a large multiplier, and 2h tanks will still be strong. XR weapon damage or physically oriented toons having something like +90-110 weapon damage multiplied by 20% is still a lot, and 11d12 multiplied by 20% is still doing well without extra KB intake or feat costs. Don't quite throw your 2h tanks in the gutter just yet, they will still perform well. But will they be the best? Time will tell, but I would guess Arcane Archers and monk weapon using classes will compete in terms of single target damage vs critical immune monsters fairly well now.
These changes have been offset in Limbo by reducing spawn sizes by 20% (to make up for the multiplier?) and increasing canopic yields, and their dmg was atrociously large for any other content anyways. I would guestimate p2hard still taking more time than before the change due to nerfs on attack amounts and Fervor regardless, but we'll see. Will have to try before condemning it.
PDK's back on the MENU BABY! Potential source of AB/Attack/Utility/Situational and Limited Crit Immunity for Rog/Assa/RDD/...Bard?, maybe even Monk! 5 class splash extra attack could be viable option for many others as well, maybe Pala/BG, depending on how well the utility ends up serving the classes, but there is much overlap with Divine Tanks in terms of what it would give them. If PDK +1 attack is easier and more reliable to maintain than Harper +2 attacks, we may even see Fighters splashing PDK over Harper for situational crit immunity and the attack - but we'll see. Their key feature also helping vs Stat Checks and most really infuriating baddies being Outsiders means... Oh wow! Shits friggin fire! Of course, if the uptime is bearable.
5 Monk 5 PDK 30 x seems like a very reasonable class spread for a bunch of classes now.
I foresee some assassins forsake their WM splash option for 5 monk 5 pdk 30 assassin for good DC, survivability, extra attack + T1 LBAB, even if low on Charisma...
5 bard 5 PDK 30 RDD also seems interesting in its own right, helping with many issues RDDs have and the extra stats really coming in clutch.
3 monk 5 pdk 32 Rogue using monk weapons and going in for sneak dmgs with a whoooole lot of attacks and oppourtunist+PDK LBAB to help with AB? Maybe, maybe...
31 paladin 4 fighter 5 PDK for extra sources of situational crit imm, attacks, utility... Maybe? 29/4/7, 28/5/7, and 31/4/5 still look better, but PDK is at least on the table as an option, or something outlandish like Alu-Fiend paladin with 28P/7WM/5PDK dualwielding rapiers.. (weapon spec, crits, extra attack from PDK, stat checks helped by PDK compensating lack of high str/dex, divine might + shield... ooh la la).
Even something wild like meleepariah/PM/Staffy with PDK? Unlikely to be smart honestly with the attacks not stacking, but who knows.
We'll see how annoying the durations will be on this class to play with without CHA-based class as a base. If they're very lenient after you get your +16, demix2, etc, then PDK might even be too strong. If the durations are miniscule then it might be simply too annoying to play... Welp, time to find out I guess! Problem with PDK is still lacking many tools beyond +1 attack and AoE pickup, and as such it will probably not attract many T1 BAB classes to give up Harper Scout in favour of PDK - many of them have better sources of Crit Immunity already, and more attacks from Harper. But that seems good right? Choices!
...
Interesting party setups and class combos that may claw up from this patch?
RDD + BattleCleric BT + BardCurse save drop synergy should be absolutely nasty frontline support for instakilling parties now, capping out save drop with just those 3 basically automatic functions. Sprinkle in Assassin for crit vulnerables, Sorc/Pariah/Druid for mind/death/banish/poison and SR drop.. Lookin pretty scary.
Herald + Lifethreader (w/ cleric epics, 25+ clr levels; and SorcCC herald for Half-KB) combo can probably do something interesting now when it comes to lowman parties (does this even matter in the Army Ages?)
RDD + Assassin synergy for big save drop + cleanup and ele dr reduction for many attacks to shine, add lash + ranger and you'll have enough dmg to beat down big baddies too (self-buffed Pos is large, conceal drop + imm drops on top).
Reduced limbo spawn sizes will mean Eradicate and Quivering Palm type mechanics will have higher value. I still hate eradicate with a passion, but if there ever was a time to shine for it, it is now. No matter how you cook it 2h folks (yes, im one of those too), 20% reduction in Rocs and Black/White/Death slaads is great.
TLDR:
2h dmg nerfed, extra attacks nerfed, DP items nerfed, here take Limbo spawn size reduction so you can wipe your tears away with extra canopics and munch on some newly-good XR items
Blind Fight now qualifies everyone for LSA:Listen! This is amazing!
Many small guys got buffed and as primary winners I would rank ASSASSIN, RDD and PDK as winners of the update! Midget Smiters also looking fancy though with that BF+LSA:Listen and increased smite dmg.
Overall, big update, big wall of text on thoughts about it - I expect a bunch of fixes to hit the game before we really get in it. Excited for the theory crafting nonetheless! Whaddyall think?
So wild! I know some of you will probably only tunnelvision in on the nerfs, but I would prefer if you kept unnecessary whining to a minimum. It is good to point out misgivings/grievances, but it would be better not to harp on them if possible. With that out of the way, Been a long time coming! Highlights for me:
Weakling buffs!:
- Heralds get epics (Conj/Ench) - finally! Druid or Sorc? I'm leaning towards sorc but we'll see, druid psk petrification imm stripping is extremely strong as well, just needs something to work with (caster shifter, pariah). Not sure this will make them good, but it will remedy a large hole in their kit.
- Smiting deals damage! Still lacking in ab, worried about paragon areas if ab cap stays at 100 for such a long cd ability, paragon buff to AC hurts already. 40 paladin looks like a decent option now nonetheless, Midget paladins also get access to LSA:Listen through Blind Fight means we may be onto something here!
- Assassin will be... Actually very good?!?! Assa parry reduction is very, very valuable and further amplified with Paragon level DC boost. +4 Dex in LLs helps with durability, DC/AB for dex assassins... Honing offhands, yummy... Looks like we got ourselves a class! PDK is just extra on top for the aspiring Assassins who can stomach losing access to WM splash or weapon spec from Ftr on 29 assa builds. Losing that 30 class perk DC isnt as bad now with the increased DC.
- Zens got a little bit less Zen and got some sexy muscles & athletics on top - STR / DEX also work for Ranged rangers! +4 DC capped out, even more if going actual Zen, and Con drain... Beware, crit vulnerables! Even classic midget 2h ranger will now shoot with big DC. DC might even be a bit too high now honestly, I woulda liked to see some different types of changes to Zen Rangers - DC wasn't and isn't their issue. I can only assume this change was made with future Paragon content in mind with special mobs handcrafted for the high DC of Zens to give them very special value in certain runs. Regardless, perks galore.
- DDs got some utility love, GIs got a lot of love. Will see how that plays out, still not gonna touch GIs, filthy mongrels.
- Divine Slingers got major dmg boost? Not perma-healing divine healers? Access to DP + Rapid Shots... Are they actually.. kinda ok now...? Strong even? Still lacking in spells that count for Slingers, but still.
- Lifethreaders got a whole bunch of indirect goodness on top of the small boost to DC in Paragon Levels. Listen opened up, top dog classes got bummed out, self-buffers still strong. Corruptor of Fate getting access to listen now on Cleric CC threaders is pretty big for them. 26/14 spread looks very intriguing now, but probably still rely on KB resistance from Herald or Sorc/Pariah with Enchantment paragon, or items with HalfKB modifier.
- RDDs are STRONG - the fear aura at high paragon levels is a real contender, reaching almost BT tiers without checking vs SR. They've also been suffering of lack of good splashing options, enter PDK! Helps with everything they ever needed. I wouldn't be surprised to see RDDs and Assassins team up for content where it is feasible now, embodying DR drop on crit immunes and crit vulnerables rapidly perishing under Assassin assault.
- BKs got a reminder that hey we exist try us out. They look fairly decent with new weapon buff mechanisms in general, also very much helped by LSA:Listen opened up for subrace variety. They should make for fairly sturdy 1h frontliners with decent damage from Tensers and self-buffed weapon buffs, or 2h with monk splash and BG Hide.
- Warchanters didn't get a specific buff of any kind, but the nerf on Divine Power items means their casted Haste went up in value significantly. Granting attacks to team is big, I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the top dog dmg dealers replaced with WC now as part of the team to make up for the lost attacks.
Honorary mention: Monk weapons got buffed...? Wait, no they didn't! But more access from teammates to DR reduction, Heralds with access to half-kb paragon, 2h nerf, attack amount nerfs, access to PDK... Maybe they did indeed get buffed? May not be using CC monk for it, but sure looks interesting. And the fistmonks are happy about their endgame weapons finally being implemented.
NotWeakling buffs:
Weapon Masters get half-KB at WM30. This is BIG, Humongous! Obvious downside of not being able to access Weapon Specialization with it unless subrace enables it, but still pretty big. I foresee 30 wm builds using monk levels and monk attack progression as future interesting builds; or just dualwielding good weapons, or splashing Harper Scout/PDK with very WM-Feat heavy subraces.
Harper Scouts got their boots slot back!! Welcome y'all to the E-Dodge/Breach Boots show while retaining +2 attacks. DP cloak/belts being nerfed also means Harper attacks are comparatively more valuable than before. I expect to see Harper Scout soar in popularity for those who can splash it in the T1-BAB class tier - Paladins, Fighters, WMs, Barbarians, even Monks still - and for the inferior folk, PDK will likely be a more popular choice. Overall, a big plus nonetheless.
Blindfight now qualifies for LSA:Listen PARTY PARTY IN DA HOUSE! Yes! Aww yeeeee - opens up non-half elven / elven subraces to classes without Listen. This is huuuge. Major beneficiaries include: Bane Knights, CC:Cleric Lifethreaders, non-Half-Elven Battleclerics and Divine Tanks as majorly happy folk. Includes midget smiters! Wowowow!
Indirectly possibly even TOO happy folk: Staffmasters and Battleclerics. Selfbuffing weapon buff from before and now nerf on 2h and attack numbers, should do comparably well now, maybe even too well...? We'll see!
THE BIG NERF. 40% multiplier on 2h dmg to 20%, and item-buffed DP source from 45 to 41, meaning our top tier damage dealers have been stripped of a significant amount of damage, for very good reason. Also seems like DP/Tenser/SoV don't seem to grant +2 extra attacks for now at 55, so that might hurt the 35+ base caster lvl casters and quasis a bit, but that may be necessary with these changes. If they retain all their extra attacks, they may be too strong (BattleClerics in particular as potential prime offenders remaining on top).
Overall, the nerf is a welcome change long time coming, time will tell how it plays out. Downside: I think the combination of weapon buff changes + attack number nerf + 2h nerf has probably hit level 41-Hells/Abyss content doing folk who use DB weapons and don't selfbuff weapon buffs and don't have XR weapons a bit too hard.
It is worth remembering that 20% is still a large multiplier, and 2h tanks will still be strong. XR weapon damage or physically oriented toons having something like +90-110 weapon damage multiplied by 20% is still a lot, and 11d12 multiplied by 20% is still doing well without extra KB intake or feat costs. Don't quite throw your 2h tanks in the gutter just yet, they will still perform well. But will they be the best? Time will tell, but I would guess Arcane Archers and monk weapon using classes will compete in terms of single target damage vs critical immune monsters fairly well now.
These changes have been offset in Limbo by reducing spawn sizes by 20% (to make up for the multiplier?) and increasing canopic yields, and their dmg was atrociously large for any other content anyways. I would guestimate p2hard still taking more time than before the change due to nerfs on attack amounts and Fervor regardless, but we'll see. Will have to try before condemning it.
PDK's back on the MENU BABY! Potential source of AB/Attack/Utility/Situational and Limited Crit Immunity for Rog/Assa/RDD/...Bard?, maybe even Monk! 5 class splash extra attack could be viable option for many others as well, maybe Pala/BG, depending on how well the utility ends up serving the classes, but there is much overlap with Divine Tanks in terms of what it would give them. If PDK +1 attack is easier and more reliable to maintain than Harper +2 attacks, we may even see Fighters splashing PDK over Harper for situational crit immunity and the attack - but we'll see. Their key feature also helping vs Stat Checks and most really infuriating baddies being Outsiders means... Oh wow! Shits friggin fire! Of course, if the uptime is bearable.
5 Monk 5 PDK 30 x seems like a very reasonable class spread for a bunch of classes now.
I foresee some assassins forsake their WM splash option for 5 monk 5 pdk 30 assassin for good DC, survivability, extra attack + T1 LBAB, even if low on Charisma...
5 bard 5 PDK 30 RDD also seems interesting in its own right, helping with many issues RDDs have and the extra stats really coming in clutch.
3 monk 5 pdk 32 Rogue using monk weapons and going in for sneak dmgs with a whoooole lot of attacks and oppourtunist+PDK LBAB to help with AB? Maybe, maybe...
31 paladin 4 fighter 5 PDK for extra sources of situational crit imm, attacks, utility... Maybe? 29/4/7, 28/5/7, and 31/4/5 still look better, but PDK is at least on the table as an option, or something outlandish like Alu-Fiend paladin with 28P/7WM/5PDK dualwielding rapiers.. (weapon spec, crits, extra attack from PDK, stat checks helped by PDK compensating lack of high str/dex, divine might + shield... ooh la la).
Even something wild like meleepariah/PM/Staffy with PDK? Unlikely to be smart honestly with the attacks not stacking, but who knows.
We'll see how annoying the durations will be on this class to play with without CHA-based class as a base. If they're very lenient after you get your +16, demix2, etc, then PDK might even be too strong. If the durations are miniscule then it might be simply too annoying to play... Welp, time to find out I guess! Problem with PDK is still lacking many tools beyond +1 attack and AoE pickup, and as such it will probably not attract many T1 BAB classes to give up Harper Scout in favour of PDK - many of them have better sources of Crit Immunity already, and more attacks from Harper. But that seems good right? Choices!
...
Interesting party setups and class combos that may claw up from this patch?
RDD + BattleCleric BT + BardCurse save drop synergy should be absolutely nasty frontline support for instakilling parties now, capping out save drop with just those 3 basically automatic functions. Sprinkle in Assassin for crit vulnerables, Sorc/Pariah/Druid for mind/death/banish/poison and SR drop.. Lookin pretty scary.
Herald + Lifethreader (w/ cleric epics, 25+ clr levels; and SorcCC herald for Half-KB) combo can probably do something interesting now when it comes to lowman parties (does this even matter in the Army Ages?)
RDD + Assassin synergy for big save drop + cleanup and ele dr reduction for many attacks to shine, add lash + ranger and you'll have enough dmg to beat down big baddies too (self-buffed Pos is large, conceal drop + imm drops on top).
Reduced limbo spawn sizes will mean Eradicate and Quivering Palm type mechanics will have higher value. I still hate eradicate with a passion, but if there ever was a time to shine for it, it is now. No matter how you cook it 2h folks (yes, im one of those too), 20% reduction in Rocs and Black/White/Death slaads is great.
TLDR:
2h dmg nerfed, extra attacks nerfed, DP items nerfed, here take Limbo spawn size reduction so you can wipe your tears away with extra canopics and munch on some newly-good XR items
Blind Fight now qualifies everyone for LSA:Listen! This is amazing!
Many small guys got buffed and as primary winners I would rank ASSASSIN, RDD and PDK as winners of the update! Midget Smiters also looking fancy though with that BF+LSA:Listen and increased smite dmg.
Overall, big update, big wall of text on thoughts about it - I expect a bunch of fixes to hit the game before we really get in it. Excited for the theory crafting nonetheless! Whaddyall think?
