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Post by Lil' Mikey (Msowby2) on Dec 1, 2020 20:48:46 GMT
Not to mix apples and oranges here BUT Couild the team consider lowing XR Race tags on accounts to 75? As it stands very few have the new necessary class combos and we are looking at Months, if not longer, of Demi/Prince wins of having Limbo Ready toons. I.E I just won a Pholarch. I cant even begin to build it until I purchase a new account, level something to 80, Mark the account, THEN make and build it and begin runs. Or you could use tag it on an account with a level 80 already? Asking for a change to a system that has been in place for *years* for purely selfish reasons is not a compelling argument to merit a change (that has been discussed multiple times on multiple threads....). There are many, many, people that farmed LL all the way to 80. It doesn't take a huge time investment to level a toon to 80 if you strategize your xp intake and participate in xp event weekends.
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Post by merkley on Dec 1, 2020 20:49:21 GMT
post deleted. off topic.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 1, 2020 21:00:21 GMT
Guys, let's keep the thread on topic, please.
Thanks, Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 1, 2020 21:01:49 GMT
Just to confirm, the max dc for a non-quasi xdd to kill a wind/fume would [xDD level] + 10[update] + [CON Modifier] - 5[update] + [fear aura] = 40 + Con Modifier ? I'll have to check this when I get home unless another team member can confirm. Funky
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Post by Raj on Dec 1, 2020 21:08:29 GMT
DC 35+CONmod vs fort - 5 (aura) + d20 to be more precise but ye that's the expected result.
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Post by Pulpo on Dec 1, 2020 21:08:46 GMT
What's your take on the patch? Do you like it, hate it? I dont like how slowly My Tanks in XR weapons "FEEL", Thats subjective of course. I am concerned that the 2h Changes dont take into account enough things such as mobs and encounters already built around them. I enjoy the possibilities of making other classes and combos viable but am wary that it comes at a price to the class combos that I already enjoy. I am curious to see how my team will attack this new hurdle and am encouraged by our past success. My primary concern is the 2h Changes to be frank. The rest of the changes are good imho including more variety for Fighters and melee equipment changes. I am Hopeful that all opinions will continue to matter and weigh equally. I am looking forward to all the new class builds too.
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Post by Pulpo on Dec 1, 2020 21:16:20 GMT
Not to mix apples and oranges here BUT Couild the team consider lowing XR Race tags on accounts to 75? As it stands very few have the new necessary class combos and we are looking at Months, if not longer, of Demi/Prince wins of having Limbo Ready toons. I.E I just won a Pholarch. I cant even begin to build it until I purchase a new account, level something to 80, Mark the account, THEN make and build it and begin runs. Or you could use tag it on an account with a level 80 already? Asking for a change to a system that has been in place for *years* for purely selfish reasons is not a compelling argument to merit a change (that has been discussed multiple times on multiple threads....). There are many, many, people that farmed LL all the way to 80. It doesn't take a huge time investment to level a toon to 80 if you strategize your xp intake and participate in xp event weekends. Hi ! Thanks for your input. I am not trying to qualify you but I am not familiar with seeing you on XP Event weekends. I typically do 4 to 5 complete Hell cycles or Abyss cycles with my guild and plan my RL around it. I am fortunate enough to have a fantastic wife and fam that support those great weekends with friends and have played over 18 hours on some days !!! I am Super familiar with xp strats too ! That being said I will never be impressed by anyone using the line of logic" Thats how its always been done" as a viable excuse. I will also file "We have talked about this alot in the past" as a reason to not speak about something either. The demographics of the game has changed and continues to change. Multi boxing is the life blood of the servers on average. I am not saying EVERYONE BOXES! I am saying Boxers currently outnumber single players on any given day on any given time. The game is old and Niche so that is normal in any game. I am asking if the team has CONSIDERED this, which is my Right to. If it doesnt fit in a type of question you would ask then dont. If you dont like reading questions like then dont. I have the right to ask for apples to be found in the container instead of oranges to get in the farm, Get it?.. Have A Great Day.
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Post by Pulpo on Dec 1, 2020 21:20:59 GMT
One incredibly huge problem on HG is the lack of tolerance on OTHER peoples views. This issue as pervaded Society as a whole but in HG its just stupid. If someone Likes this patch they have EVERY right to do so and publicize it and post about it etc. If someone HATES this patch they have the right to do the same. What we DONT have the right to do is categorize, condescend, minimize, and or insult other PEOPLE for their views. Hey willie. Where does cutting people out of loot splits rank on your list of things not to do? Or were you just following orders like a good boy. I'm sure someone wouldn't feel minimized or insulted that his 5 hours of contribution on 2 full abyss cycles was not even noticed enough to wait 10 minutes, after a break you called, to include him in the split. I pulled Full bard duties and I out damaged and out killed both of prepared's tanks with my one tank, but I guess that wasn't enough for you guys. Oh ya, and lying, where does that rank. You said that you bring in your bard in for all your loot splits, I've watched. you don't. Merkley this is soooooooooo far from what really happend that I have neither the desire nor the energy to answer this wall of refuse. This is a sophmoric attempt to discredit me and my opinions instead of allowing me to express my issues with game patch notes and OTHER peoples opinions. If you really had a problem with me and this you should have spoken to me personally about this. I would have been more than happy to clarify any issues you felt you had. This is a small server pop and I find it is best to work issues out with individuals privately IF you really want to which you didnt. Just took a pop shot and moved on. Also watch your mouth with that Good Boy Crap, it smacks of racism.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 1, 2020 21:40:12 GMT
Ok, going to delete any more posts in this vein.
Funky
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Post by Raj on Dec 1, 2020 21:50:02 GMT
Just ot be clear, limbo mobs haven't been "already built around two handed weapon users". In fact, no single mob in the module has been.
Limbo mobs have been originally released 4 years ago with resistances, hp, conceal and immunities out of whack, have been beaten by the first parties with no single XR and builds that weren't tailored for it, but after a lot of player feedback the difficulty has been gradually toned down (and rewards increased) so that clearing times and party formations could be more inclusive. Every year or so there's a new bunch of edit because limbo feels sloggy and unrewarding for the majority of people attempting it. Even this latest patch came with a spawn reduction and a reward increment but most people seem to ignore that part. It's not even over yet.
Due to the discrepancy in power between two handed tanks and pretty much everything else the meta gradually shifted into a very restrictive way to build our toons if we wanted them to be worth the endgame. Earlier areas don't matter much anymore either, they can be stormed by overlevelled paragon characters anyway so it doesn't matter if your turner is good in dustbone or the assassin feels ok in stygia, they're crap in limbo hence not worth be played. That has to be corrected. There'll be new areas where different niche builds will shine but for now Limbo is the only endgame and most player feedback is taken in consideration; a greater percentage of builds has to be deemed worthy, or at least fun to be played.
There's a limit at how much a monster can be nerfed, in order for more character builds to be effective against it: if at the same time the builds that already worked are still outperforming everybody else, as long as they keep an edge there's no need to change party formations or builds. When the top dmg dealers are dragging the party through the endgame runs in good time and with little efforts we have little reasons to tone down monsters even more, or risk making the run yet another pushover. Hence, nerfing the guys at the top of the food chain is a necessity, in order to keep toning down the difficulty and make limbo a lil more inclusive. Alternative to nerfing the few outstanding builds would be increasing efficiency of every other class, but that requires a lot more efforts, makes older runs even easier, and puts the wrong fundations for new areas planning.
I know you're not used to big balance swings on such an old game but that's the consequence of some active development. That's also the reason we have reincarnation.
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Post by woqued on Dec 1, 2020 23:38:46 GMT
Random ramblings on 2h vs dualwielders and old/new top builds
Using a simplified comparison of XR weapons 5 attacks*1,2 vs 7*1,0 attacks against noncrittable, 40% imm 15/- dr targets, 2h falls off very slightly on ele/exo portion of the dmg and draws ahead on physical dmg, and overall draws slightly ahead even without external attacks included. When you include WC haste, Mass Haste, Fervor, 2h still draws way ahead. If you use Boss imm/dr, dualwield doesn't even compare really. Scenarios where dualwielders draw ahead is lack of external attack enhancers and existence of DR drops (RDD, Wracking PM/BK, BFM come to mind). I wouldn't count average dmg dealt across a run using Harper Scout anymore; uptime isn't reliable overtime, but still good for bosses (unless you bring Fervor).
Outliers to this calc would be Castertanks, CoTs and Shadowdancers, who still enjoy passive 6-7 attacks with 1,2 multiplier, really prefering 2h over dualwielding with 8-9 attacks for now no matter what really, exceptions being if you use monk weapons and Rhek/Alu-Fiend for weapon spec; then dualwielding becomes attractive due to splash choices granting dmg that doesn't require Fighter, and/or monk attack progression. Again, caster tanks also benefit less from Fervor; so good ol' top dogs will be top dogs still if you bring Fervor. If you don't bring any external attack count enhancers, prob best plan is to just bring BC + Stormlord for attacks + selfbuffed dice and ofc the (Ranger + Lash) for conceal/inflict and stuff since they selfbuff higher dice and more attacks natively.
This is all done without taking into account the potential AB issues dualwielders have compared to 2h, nor including feat costs into the discussion (unless you circumvent the feat issue by using items!).
Thing is, it's easier to implement the external attack enhancers into a party than it is DR drops, so I guess 2h will remain king for now, no need to panic reincarnate your toons (I know I won't, but I'll feel slightly happier about my dual weapon users now instead of playing the Paladin all the time). I would consider external attack count increasing buffers the new Rangers - something you simply want to integrate into your Limbo adventures. Bard with a quick hand at Mass Haste is probably the simplest one to integrate, but Fervor bot (sigh) and Warchanter buffing other tanks with Haste would also serve (warchanter attack most reliable uptime, mass haste from bard then for bosses) And yes, I wouldn't replace the bard with the Warchanter, would replace one of the tanks with it to grant everyone a long lasting extra attack buff, while also providing warcry and 7 attacks per round 2hander dmg or got less geared, just go 1h+shield warchanter, 2h warchanters are pretty flimsy. I know my 2hwc gets dunked on in Limbo, raj 2hwc performed alright in p1h pre-patch... couple days ago, with pretty much as good gear as it gets.
Fighter still one of the top classes (shocker). WM splash still as good as before. Harper... no verdict, if we include fervor then there's no point in splashing harper for boss fights due stacking issues. If no external attack enhancers are present, BCs, Staffy, BK, WC compete better, but if we have external attack enhancers then the good ol' Fighters/Paladins seem best (selfbuffers' extra attacks don't stack with many of our external attack sources, like Fervor).
CoTs still perform well, no change. Sturdy, easy dmg with little reliance on team. They benefit less from Fervor now since they were included into the pool of DP source attacks, but since Haste still stacks, they would be very pleased about having Warchanter friend along for perma 7 attacks per round (basically what they were doing before with CoT passive + wrap), with less multiplier. Better uptime than Fervor tho.
Paladin still great, remains to be seen how well Midget Smiters may perform. Honestly, in a party with both Bard + WC, the stat check issues on str/dex department that midget smiters face are greatly alleviated. Look forward to seeing a party with those two working in tandem. Sonic/Divine kinda suck in Limbo2 so they aren't greatly pleased about the buff mechanic change, but not sad either.
TLDR: 2h still p. much better than dualwielding in endgame or planned group setups, gap was closed a bit though; old top dogs are still top dogs in specialist group because their overall dmg/sturdiness is still the best, same as before just with smaller multiplier (that blanket effect hit all 2handers). Before the patch dualwielders weren't drawing even even against 0% imm 0 dr targets (basically even with 5 attacks 1,4* multiplier on ele/exo, as 7 attacks with 1* multiplier, while falling way behind on physical dmg). I know many would've liked the gap to be evened in a different way - i.e buffing dualwielders or 1handers up instead of putting 2h down, but let's work with what we got for now.
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Post by boroie on Dec 2, 2020 0:06:40 GMT
Thematically I've always loved dual wielders, especially double weapons. Unfortunately they still suck and I can't see a way to improve them damage wise that doesnt also benefit the 2H that just got nerfed. Perhaps additional shield AC?
As an aside, can we change it so rangers get wis ac from using a double weapon? They get it from 2 weapons, not when using the double weapon though. Throw in some shield AC (eg similar amount to legendary ranger bow perhaps) and maybe that gets interesting.
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Post by woqued on Dec 2, 2020 0:35:46 GMT
I'll note that in current patch, if we manage to drop DR to 0/-, against Crit immune targets, 2h draws even when both Fervor and Mass Haste are both applied to 2h user at same time. Until then, Dual Wielder is ahead unless the imms are skewed to affect Phys less than Ele/Exo, in which case 2h draws ahead, ofc ignoring the AC/KB/Feat problems, but dmg wise dualwielders are now ahead SUPPOSE WE DROP DR ENOUGH.
RDD DR drop and Wracks from BK (who got sp/dc boosts woo) etc are a step in the right direction, but I feel they are too situational and you gotta spend time doing JUST dr dropping, and stopping whatever you are doing to do so (thus lowering your own dmg output/instakilling/whatever). You want absolute acid imm, but you don't wanna inflict acid, you wanna inflict cold/fire instead for most of the current endgame (for Limbo in particular, for Mechanus it could be something entirely different). If DR drop was more readily available and accessible, Dual Wielding is already where it should be, top dmg since you invest feats and pay ab for it and gather equipment to use it effectively.
... That being said, I would prefer 2h being stronger than dual wielding simply because buffing dual weapons and gathering them is such a pain. Dual weps are such an elaborate answer to this problem, but then guys like Rangers and small folk can't use them ;(
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Post by dagoon on Dec 2, 2020 1:25:52 GMT
As I previously stated the issue between 1h and 2h is down to dmg resistance..... 1.4 dmg with 5 attacks is comparable to 1.0 damage with 7 attacks ( dual wield with haste) at 1.0 dmg.... yet to attain that you need to invest 3 feats and still lose 2 ab doing ir... that’s the core issue and one that I don’t honestly have an answer to other than removing DR entirely from mobs and them just having immunity’s ( I’m not a tech guy in the slightest but I guess that would be a lot of work for an already over stretched dev team)
Sorry for typos, 1:30 am here and a bottle of rum down 😂👍🏻
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 2, 2020 1:34:45 GMT
We're easing up considerably on DR in Mechanus, and will probably ease it more for this reason. Father Llymic areas will have lots of breakable DR, which is str/dex neutral until broken.
Funky
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