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Post by Pulpo on Dec 4, 2020 0:01:11 GMT
That is exciting to hear! I agree with the KB thing taking away from the WM Change(Theme). My 2 Copper would be to remove the KB from Dex Assassins only so that the Str ones WILL have to build around that but will allow dexers to increase damage without Casting the OP wand on them. Making them MS and Poison spreaders is Thematic imho as well as making them Valuable to a team. I dont think ( Dangerous last words) that change would effect them much anywhere else in the Mod either, damage wise. I can appreciate the asset management point of view for the team too. Looking forward to running around Limbo with an Assassin in the Near Future!
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Post by woqued on Dec 4, 2020 16:43:19 GMT
Ok SOOOOO I am doing this deep dive in the new changes and My Head is Ploding (*Pun) with the Assasin. 1. Penetrating stike not being integrated gives you double KB on hits, the hit and the Pen Strike, is that planned? Will Assn take KB from DoT or Penalty lowering Poisons? Is there any plans on endgame poisons dropping in a convinient (easy) place like Town Store or make poison like a Hone ability ? Trying to change OUR endgame make up and add variety. These are mostly questions induced by the patch which is why I felt them appropriate here. Please move if it isnt. Thanks ) We were just discussing both poison availability and the double packets in team chat this hour. Once concern with undoubling the packets is that Assassins may become too strong. WMs now excel at handling kb'ers, and assassins not so much. I don't see that as a bad thing, if it's not a massive impediment to the class. For poisons, we were talking crafting. No idea where we will land on these issues yet. One thing I will say is my main focus is on fixing broken stuff and letting the current edits settle a little. Some of the edits are likely to have knock-on effects. Perinarch, for example, has been reworked to inflict broad damage resistance reduction, which should help dexers. That doesn't mean you shouldn't propose edits, however, just that they are unlikely to be made for a month or two unless they are a) minor in impact and b) thematically fitting - see, e.g., another thread today re Stormlords getting Storm Tower. Funky Double KB is not the issue; if pen strike was carelessly (in current form) integrated then it'd be obviously too strong, but not because of lack of Kickback dmg intake, but due to pen strike numbers being too high for integrated dmg. It would be a *buff* if you just removed the dmg as it currently is implemented in many areas of the game, so that assa could better help with mobs like White/Death slaad without commiting seppuku in the process while doing pathetic damage. The KB itself is a questionable way of balancing Assassins imo, currently Assassins do very little in way of helping with KB mobs even if they could hit them and most of the high kb mobs like fumes can't be MS'd anyway so that sort of "abuse" isn't in the cards either, and many key targets can't be MS'd so ... Currently, the KB of Assassin merely puts them in a "ok, I won't help guys, your turn" -position which is counterproductive. If "too tanky dexer" is the problem, then that applies to every dexer char regardless, not sure why Assassins should be uniquely punished for this in particular. I tried to come up with various ideas to rework penetrating strike, but nothing felt 100% at home that would fit with what I perceive to be the in line with the HG balance system and "not stepping on anyones toes". Anyhow to provide at least something: 1. If the Assassin has Base STR of 40 or above, if the target is immune to Mortal Strike, they make a save against Penetrating Strike (with DC equal to MS), on a failed save taking damage equal to STR modifier multiplied by every 8 assassin levels, for 48 assa build capping at 6 multiplier; succesful save completely negating the damage. Reasoning: Assuming going all in on STR with +8 sub and taking all STR possible, we'd be looking at 80 STR, so 35 modifier, multiplied by 6 looking at physical 210 damage per round on target. Big, right? But it's not integrated (so we still take a LIL bit of KB), on high immunity targets like Death Slaad (70% imm 25/- dr assuming piercing weapon like assa dagger) we'd be doing 38 dmg per round. Vs a low imm target we'd be doing much more impressive numbers; common imm spread like 35% imm 10/- dr, we'd be doing 126 dmg per round. WTF woki! that's insane! But wait! It can fail vs save, it is separate package (so we still take 1 shot of KB) it requires going all in on STR or it won't make the saves and dmg will be low (so we are fragile as hell, we are assassins remember), and it isn't *that* much more than a 2h tank gets from, say, weap spec line. What it would do, tho, is basically bait every str assa to go 1h/board, and be uniquely useful as sword&board character. Even with high numbers like this, if this ability would roll vs both concealment AND save, it is, again, too weak/unreliable I'd say. 2. If the Assassin has Base DEX of 40 or above, apply poison on weapon an additional time per attack on the target // rolls an extra time vs enemy save / grants poisonous weapons for double poison duration? Something in that niche. 2.1 - I'm not sure how strong poisons are, but I wanted STR and DEX assassins to take distinctly different paths). I also thought of Physical DR drop equal to 1/- per 10 assassin levels capping at 5/- to fit the Dexer dualwield niche a bit, and to add some extra utility; I don't consider Wrack a very realistic or practical option. Not sure if doc is correct, but assuming it is, it rolls vs SR and assa have so limited slots that it is incredibly optimistic for that to work even if it didn't roll vs SR. Would rather see that reformed to Penetrating Strike, with lesser effect and duration due to easier application. 2.2 Same effect as proposed 1 packet dmg of Str, but halved dmg cuz Dex is superior in other ways and shouldn't have very large dmg increase (and this effect doesn't scale with dualwielding, which is... good?). Both options deal with the KB issue in different ways, and I don't /think/ they'd be OP, but I could be wrong there. Eh, it's food for thought at least.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 4, 2020 17:02:48 GMT
We'll remove the double kb on Pen Strike.
Funky
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Post by fraxen on Dec 4, 2020 17:53:36 GMT
Not sure how difficult it is but it seems logical that poison crafting could be made part of the elemental planes/Feywild drops that the alchemist can be paid to make into things.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2020 19:35:38 GMT
Not sure how difficult it is but it seems logical that poison crafting could be made part of the elemental planes/Feywild drops that the alchemist can be paid to make into things. I would prefer random drops anywhere LL+. Feywild and Ele planes aren't exactly area favs :/
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 4, 2020 20:25:25 GMT
From our todo:
Item Add Tragidore venoms to consumables chests for hells/abyss
Funky
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Post by desocupado on Dec 5, 2020 18:03:53 GMT
Wouldnt poison work better as built-in features instead of consumable based?
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 5, 2020 20:16:54 GMT
Depends on what you mean by 'work better', I suppose. Funky
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2020 20:28:11 GMT
I don’t know that tragidore + consumable chests is nearly enough to make it something that can be consistently leveraged. Especially with it so core to the class? Any possibility of expanding the drops beyond Trag + consumable chests?
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Post by woqued on Dec 5, 2020 20:38:10 GMT
If it's consumable that is somewhat hard to attain, you can up the power as opposed to class feature or a more readily available consumable.
If it's an easy consumable to attain so much so that you can permanently leverage it vs all spawns, it should be a class feature instead since consuming inventory space isn't a very reasonable way of balancing character power. In this case, power level should be gauged again; is it too strong if you can always use it without significant cost? If that is not the case, it should probably be a class feature. If yes, then it shouldn't be so readily available or should be nerfed in attainability, cost or power.
Is it fun to farm/find said poisons? If no, then it should probably be available in a store somewhere. If it's too strong if it can be bought, see the earlier paragraph.
Personally, I think they should be class features similar to Harper Scout potion making, something you make with Assassins and Blackguards, and having Asn levels gives access to more potent poisons - but that is up for debate anyways, and since they already exist as consumables it is more easy to leverage that medium over class features.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2020 21:03:25 GMT
Drop them in the rogues guild. Anyone with access to poisons or rogue duties can go and buy. Make a token which drops as an identifiable gem which is the currency to buy poisons. That would be a nice bump in how available it is without taking it to the extreme I think if you didn’t want it purchased just outright from a store.
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Post by woqued on Dec 5, 2020 21:07:28 GMT
Pls no more identifiable gems as anything.
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Post by desocupado on Dec 5, 2020 22:54:18 GMT
Depends on what you mean by 'work better', I suppose. Funky Fun to use. Reliable and available. It also would make people think of assassin and blackguards as those strong classes that use poison. Woqued voiced this in a better way. The craft idea is good.
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Post by woqued on Dec 5, 2020 23:01:06 GMT
Depends on what you mean by 'work better', I suppose. Funky Fun to use. Reliable and available. It also would make people think of assassin and blackguards as those strong classes that use poison. Woqued voiced this in a better way. The craft idea is good. They'd have to put really high costs/cooldowns on those poisons or nerf them heavily if they were class features, p. much. And require complete re-implementation, not sure it's worth, even if I think they'd be much more fun to use that way.
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Post by drunkenboastor on Dec 5, 2020 23:35:31 GMT
I think you guys should do some testing instead of theory with poisons. They are not that rare in end game loot splits and they last a fairly long time for control class assassin and blackguards.
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