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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 8, 2020 1:31:50 GMT
This thread is about tanks. The tank builds out there aren't builds posted by you guys, they're all by True. The builds posted by True / used by a lot of people aren't builds used by you guys. That's what I meant. The players on the server are using tank builds posted and used by the players they see performing well with them / available for consumption. There are quite a few builds posted by Raj which fall outside the category which all see heavy use. That wasn't what I was communicating. When the bulk of those builds were posted, True wasn't in DT, and I don't think anyone in DT but True ran the Fighter / WM / HS, which True, myself, Manuka all did which really threw it out there. Thank you to True for all the builds. Nor this... |
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 8, 2020 1:32:37 GMT
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 8, 2020 1:34:18 GMT
Why is massing viewed as cheese if it takes the players being able to make it work to even be realistic? Skill, character power, knowledge of enemies, etc. How about you trying figuring that one out on your own, instead of asking me to spend time doing it. If you're still legitimately confused afterwards, post in an OT thread. Funky |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 2:12:42 GMT
I think that seems fair-ish. Might overall be a buff from previous patch, but with slight added annoyance of more rebuffing. You may consider it a tactical advantage (which it may be, if ppl go afk or if you die), but assuming you don't die and you're just CHOOCHOOing forward, it is a nerf still from previous patch. Shorter duration, one time extra stop to rebuff (takes time, if during combat you lose a flurry or couple doing it). 30 rounds x3 end up net total of 9 mins - so the very ideal poster boy of Harper Scouting, the Paladin!, caps out at around 9 minutes, if he went Harper he'd have +2 extra stats, maaybe could've fit even more extra stats if he gave up some stuff, but even with generosity we are looking at maybe 32 rounds capped out x3. I don't see how that's a nerf at all. I suspect you would get 3 encounters out of it, rather than two, plus the advantage of using whatever boots you want. If we do go strength, it would likely be str + dex + cha mods / 3. I'm not convinced that that's the right approach, however. Funky I think you end up in the same place when you allow all 3 modifiers and divide by 3 modifiers. You're looking at 14-20 rounds presently without STR modifier factored in.. That equates to 1.2 - 2 minutes per charge with the high end of that range coming from anything but STR based toons. When dividing by 3 modifiers you're in the 15-20 rounds still. If you take all 3 modifiers and keep it /2 you're looking at 23-30 rounds or 2.3 - 3 minutes per charge. This feels A LOT better. All of this is a nerf over pre-patch due to 10 minutes of available buff at two uses. I'd take longer duration and less uses any day of the week personally. You don't take Harper Scout on toons that can't effectively leverage the buff, exceptions would be skills mainly, and without a meaningful duration the classes left don't need it for that and it gets shelved. 3 modifiers / 2 gets the durations in a better spot for it to be meaningful. |
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Post by desocupado on Dec 8, 2020 2:15:08 GMT
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Post by chirality on Dec 8, 2020 3:11:56 GMT
I don't understand why the buff should scale off any attribute (or combination thereof) in the first place. I'm not seeing where the added value comes from, by changing what was previously a flat duration into yet another case of "disproportionately reward richer/higher-level characters" which is already far-too-prevalent in tank building.
HS buff was historically a great equalizer; it had the same power when cast by a newbie or a vet, by a x4 or a x0, by a L50 or L80, an open sub or a BUR. One of the best parts about HS was the fun and flexibility offered for buildcrafting by catering widely to tanks of all shapes and sizes--regardless of primary stat, CC, or "entry barrier" bar. With the obvious/notable exceptions of classes that simply couldn't benefit, the hs buff applied to many builds, of many class spreads and stat distributions.
Tying the duration to Charisma, which is already an extremely stacked stat, while simultaneously essentially out-of-reach-until-you're-this-tall for the high-dps build concepts that consider hs in the first place, is a mistake, in my opinion. Of course, I can't come up with much justification or pretext for why it should scale off Str or Dex, either (no, seriously, what's the concept? Con would make the most sense, if anything, imo).
Epics scale off level, or have a flat duration which has been tuned to a fixed balancepoint. If 2x 5mins was too long, then why not just reduce it until it meets the desired balance criteria? Or make it a function of character level + a flat base?
I really don't think that completely changing the application of HS splash from being an option for virtually anything with a pulse, into one more Charisma-tank toy-build concept, is a good idea. Between divtanks and battlebards, Charisma is extremely well-served both offensively and support-wise (not to mention over-represented as a splash option for nearly any tank as well, due to divine grace). High-charisma builds are represented to quite an extent, and hs was one of the few splash options that offered a treat to a variety of builds without prejudice. Str, Dex, Cha, divtank, fighter, wm, monk (ass, dwd even)...I don't know, I just don't see why it was necessary to shift the mechanic from working, irrespective of build, into something that favors not only a very limited subset of classes, but a very particular type of build as well, and on top of "favoring" also barely even works at all for anyone else.
Debating over the sweet spot for the duration formula would be a lot easier if it wasn't predicated on determining the complex variables of tank attributes.
My proposal would be to reduce the calculations involved in finding the balanced duration by switching the variable to something simple such as level, added on top of a flat base; while at the same time fixing the unsatisfactory and novel introduction of completely changing HS splash from "something that works for tanks of all kinds" into "something for Cha-dependent builds" which seems to me, a loss of variety and an artificial homogenization, out of something that was previously anything but.
Example: 3/day; 1 turn + 1 round/5 levels (including LLs and PLs) -> 1min + 48sec @ L40 (~1.75min), 1min + 72sec @ L60 (~2.25min), 1min + 96sec @ L80 (~2.5min)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2020 0:31:36 GMT
Any updates for Harper Scouts for the Tymora’s Smile? I think 3 modifiers and keep it divided by 2 or something like Chirality’s post are fantastic avenues to keep Harper’s as a legitimate choice.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 12, 2020 22:16:21 GMT
Sure, and just restoring it to its old setup would also achieve that. What about the reasons we made the edit? What, for example, do you think the impact would be on 2H vs dualer builds?
Funky
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Post by manuka on Dec 12, 2020 22:31:34 GMT
If we take a look at HS before the recent patch it was very strong. It gave 2 extra attacks for 10min which is a good amount of damage. Even with that being the case i fell that the majority of players would use splashes like wm, ftr, pally or monk instead.
Extra attacks are most efficiently used on a 2h character making use of the 20% bonus damage.
I feel that hs got hit extra hard from the 20% 2h dmg nerf. Then having its duration lowered so much to me makes it not even comparable to the other options for splashes on a 2h tank, ie ftr, monk, wm and pally.
As any character useing 1h wep or dual weild doesnt get the 20% bonus damage it is even less appealing to use on a non 2hder
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 12, 2020 22:53:30 GMT
In case it's not clear already, given my recent posts, if you don't answer my questions, you're probably not going to understand what motivates our decision-making, and are going to have a harder time persuading me (or, I suspect, anyone on the Team).
That said, there's something to what you're saying. Lets ask ourselves why is it 'less appealing to use on a non 2hder'?
Funky
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Post by desocupado on Dec 12, 2020 23:00:26 GMT
In case it's not clear already, given my recent posts, if you don't answer my questions, you're probably not going to understand what motivates our decision-making, and are going to have a harder time persuading me (or, I suspect, anyone on the Team). That said, there's something to what you're saying. Lets ask ourselves why is it 'less appealing to use on a non 2hder'? Funky Each attack has less value the lower the damage it causes (because damage reduction exists). Technically in both cases you gain 2 attacks (and +40% fps from 5 attacks), still getting two attack with base 60 damage is better than gaining two attacks that deal half as much. Of course this difference is lower nowadays. Id put wm or fighter as a better damage modifier for a splash for a 1 hander |
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 12, 2020 23:10:03 GMT
That's accurate. What about access to added attacks in general between 2Hers and dualers?
Funky
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Post by manuka on Dec 12, 2020 23:20:20 GMT
So with the duration being dex based it is meant to make it more worth while using on a dexer and make it possibly a more even playing field vs splashing on a 2hder?
The problem is its no longer worth it on a 2hder and it was barely worth it on a 1h or dual weilder anyway even before the duration nerf
Whats wrong with a certain class being good for 2h?, especialy now after the nerfs. That being said only one 1 of my many tanks used hs, as the limited duration and use perday often wasnt worth it compared to playing a cot or splashing somthing else on a run like p2h when u can die at any second and is a very long run(all my tanks are designed to farm this run)
Most classes are designed to do a specific thing, ie pdk is good on low bab tanks
Anyway whats come of hs is that i wouldn't use it anymore in any of my tanks, dex str or chra based. I consider myself one of the best tank(high dps carry) players and my concern is that while trying to make the class attracrive to 1h and dual weild it will end up being used by nobody
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Post by desocupado on Dec 12, 2020 23:53:41 GMT
That's accurate. What about access to added attacks in general between 2Hers and dualers? Funky Dual wielding makes extra attacks even less attractive ( from 7 attacks to 9 we get about +28% instead of 40%). Extra attacks benefit classes with good base damage, while extra damage (like druid paragon) has bigger returns to classes with lots of attacks. A cl 80 weaponspren grants 80 damage for 5 attacks and 144 to 9 attacks. |
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 13, 2020 0:32:12 GMT
That's accurate. What about access to added attacks in general between 2Hers and dualers? Funky Dual wielding makes extra attacks even less attractive ( from 7 attacks to 9 we get about +28% instead of 40%). Extra attacks benefit classes with good base damage, while extra damage (like druid paragon) has bigger returns to classes with lots of attacks. A cl 80 weaponspren grants 80 damage for 5 attacks and 144 to 9 attacks. So, each attack is of greater benefit to a 2her. What about the cost of obtaining those attacks for a 2Her vs. a dexer? Funky |
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