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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 13, 2020 0:33:41 GMT
So with the duration being dex based it is meant to make it more worth while using on a dexer and make it possibly a more even playing field vs splashing on a 2hder? The problem is its no longer worth it on a 2hder and it was barely worth it on a 1h or dual weilder anyway even before the duration nerf Whats wrong with a certain class being good for 2h?, especialy now after the nerfs. That being said only one 1 of my many tanks used hs, as the limited duration and use perday often wasnt worth it compared to playing a cot or splashing somthing else on a run like p2h when u can die at any second and is a very long run(all my tanks are designed to farm this run) Most classes are designed to do a specific thing, ie pdk is good on low bab tanks Anyway whats come of hs is that i wouldn't use it anymore in any of my tanks, dex str or chra based. I consider myself one of the best tank(high dps carry) players and my concern is that while trying to make the class attracrive to 1h and dual weild it will end up being used by nobody You're skipping too many steps. Though, this: might eventually get you there. Funky
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Post by dagoon on Dec 13, 2020 2:01:14 GMT
HS was almost mandatory to deal competitive top tier damage... now it’s marginal at best and (on a fighter at least) I think I prefere the added defences of a 1 monk splash to the short burst of extra offence.
As for the difference between 2h and dw having access to the extra attacks... is there any really? Dw has to invest 3 feats to both salvage their ab and add an offhand attack (which has less bonus dmg from Str modifier iirc). That however doesnt prevent them taking Hs or other attack adding splashes (but as previously stated, the receive less benefit as each attack is for less damage). Overall I think I like that so many more builds have become viable contributors in the melee game, but I’ve never been a fan of weakening one thing to make another appear stronger. In a world without flat damage resistance, 2h dmg + 40% would deal slightly more dmg (due to not receiving full Str bonus on offhand) than dw with identical stats/gear
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 13, 2020 5:06:23 GMT
HS was almost mandatory to deal competitive top tier damage... now it’s marginal at best and (on a fighter at least) I think I prefere the added defences of a 1 monk splash to the short burst of extra offence. What's top tier now? Funky
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Post by dagoon on Dec 13, 2020 8:57:31 GMT
What's top tier now? Funky[/quote] Remains to be seen I guess, but the old f/wm/Hs is no longer head and shoulders above everything else.
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Post by dagoon on Dec 13, 2020 12:41:10 GMT
In a world without flat damage resistance, 2h dmg + 40% would deal slightly more dmg (due to not receiving full Str bonus on offhand) than dw more like the exact opposite How so... 5 attacks at 140% equates to 7 attacks at 100%.... but 2 of the 7 attacks get reduced bonus base damage from Str. Hence it being slightly above if all other conditions are the same.
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Post by chirality on Dec 13, 2020 12:50:05 GMT
yeah, I misread and posted too fast, went to delete and only after deleting saw you responded already.
sorry
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Post by dagoon on Dec 13, 2020 12:51:49 GMT
yeah, I misread and posted too fast, went to delete and only after deleting saw you responded already. sorry Yeah it’s the flat damage resistances that put 2h well ahead at the 40% bonus, 20% seems to even the gap somewhat, but I don’t have the time or the energy to run the numbers exactly
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 13, 2020 17:56:03 GMT
Remains to be seen I guess, but the old f/wm/Hs is no longer head and shoulders above everything else. Which is why it got nerfed. Funky
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Post by manuka on Dec 13, 2020 18:13:56 GMT
Remains to be seen I guess, but the old f/wm/Hs is no longer head and shoulders above everything else. Which is why it got nerfed. Funky Sigh, head and shoulders above everything else? Can you please explain this because it is not true before the nerf and not true after If hs got nerfed because of 1 build i created, that is a glass cannon and requires the best gear in the game to function Even with best gear it still itsnt better than a standard cot
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Post by woqued on Dec 13, 2020 20:39:54 GMT
Which is why it got nerfed. Funky Sigh, head and shoulders above everything else? Can you please explain this because it is not true before the nerf and not true after If hs got nerfed because of 1 build i created, that is a glass cannon and requires the best gear in the game to function Even with best gear it still itsnt better than a standard cot It's not all about you, you weren't the first and won't be the last.
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Post by manuka on Dec 13, 2020 20:57:51 GMT
Sigh, head and shoulders above everything else? Can you please explain this because it is not true before the nerf and not true after If hs got nerfed because of 1 build i created, that is a glass cannon and requires the best gear in the game to function Even with best gear it still itsnt better than a standard cot It's not all about you, you weren't the first and won't be the last. Who was the first then? Anyway again have 1 hs toon and im not being selfish in making my point that the class will no longer be used. Do you disagree that hs isnt worth useing now?
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Post by woqued on Dec 13, 2020 21:04:06 GMT
It's not all about you, you weren't the first and won't be the last. Who was the first then? Anyway how againi have 1 hs toon and im not being selfish in making my point that the class will no longer be used. Do you disagree that hs isnt worth useing now? It doesn't matter who was first. It's not about you. Anyways, I've made the point that I think the duration is too short many times, even in this thread. Whether the devs agree or not is up to them and they're the ones with the final say. I'm guessing we'll have to playtest it and see where they end up, but it shouldn't be expected for changes to happen right away after a patch happens. Constant begging for changes, adjustments and updates based on what xyz ppl like is understandable but also really selfish. We've made the case right? They disagree, now we give it time. You're a gamer, you know how it goes: a class/thing/champ/hero gets nerfed, then it sucks for a time, or maybe it doesn't. If nobody likes playing it then adjustments are made, if it turns out it didn't suck quite as bad as everyone thought as the patch hit then maybe adjustments aren't needed. Just because on HG we have a direct line to the devs doesn't mean we get to decide when and how changes happen.
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Post by manuka on Dec 13, 2020 21:14:59 GMT
Who was the first then? Anyway how againi have 1 hs toon and im not being selfish in making my point that the class will no longer be used. Do you disagree that hs isnt worth useing now? It doesn't matter who was first. It's not about you. Anyways, I've made the point that I think the duration is too short many times, even in this thread. Whether the devs agree or not is up to them and they're the ones with the final say. I'm guessing we'll have to playtest it and see where they end up, but it shouldn't be expected for changes to happen right away after a patch happens. Constant begging for changes, adjustments and updates based on what xyz ppl like is understandable but also really selfish. We've made the case right? They disagree, now we give it time. You're a gamer, you know how it goes: a class/thing/champ/hero gets nerfed, then it sucks for a time, or maybe it doesn't. If nobody likes playing it then adjustments are made, if it turns out it didn't suck quite as bad as everyone thought as the patch hit then maybe adjustments aren't needed. Just because on HG we have a direct line to the devs doesn't mean we get to decide when and how changes happen. In alot 9f games they have pbe servers where the players give feed back before new patches hit. While we are getting lots of great updates atm in the past they have been few and far between. It could be years before hs gets buffed if it doesnt happen soon. Obviously we dont have this on hg and as a experienced player and user of the class im trying to make them understand that instead of doing a reasonable nerf, they have effectively removed the class from the game. Similar to what pdk was before the patch. If you think trying to help hg is selfish and useing my own experiences to back up my point of veiw good for u
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Post by woqued on Dec 13, 2020 21:21:46 GMT
It doesn't matter who was first. It's not about you. Anyways, I've made the point that I think the duration is too short many times, even in this thread. Whether the devs agree or not is up to them and they're the ones with the final say. I'm guessing we'll have to playtest it and see where they end up, but it shouldn't be expected for changes to happen right away after a patch happens. Constant begging for changes, adjustments and updates based on what xyz ppl like is understandable but also really selfish. We've made the case right? They disagree, now we give it time. You're a gamer, you know how it goes: a class/thing/champ/hero gets nerfed, then it sucks for a time, or maybe it doesn't. If nobody likes playing it then adjustments are made, if it turns out it didn't suck quite as bad as everyone thought as the patch hit then maybe adjustments aren't needed. Just because on HG we have a direct line to the devs doesn't mean we get to decide when and how changes happen. In alot 9f games they have pbe servers where the players give feed back before new patches hit. While we are getting lots of great updates atm in the past they have been few and far between. It could be years before hs gets buffed if it doesnt happen soon. Obviously we dont have this on hg and as a experienced player and user of the class im trying to make them understand that instead of doing a reasonable nerf, they have effectively removed the class from the game. Similar to what pdk was before the patch. If you think trying to help hg is selfish and useing my own experiences to back up my point of veiw good for u Ya, PBE would help no doubt, and reliable updates aren't necessarily that in the future I share your concern in that way, but I never said your experience doesn't matter though, just that it's not all about your build. We agree on harper buff duration sucking now and other classes being better splashes EDIT: but it's DEFINITELY not even close to old pdk lol. But ya, we can stop here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2020 21:40:58 GMT
I think the point is that the duration needs a buff for it to be meaningful. Different splashes facilitate more defensive, offensive, or balanced routes for characters. The patch achieved meaningful choice where it didn’t exist before. It truly has. I’ve ran with COTs, rangers, fighters, black guards, a bard with PDK and all are doing well. I think the 2H% and and the wrap changes truly did a lot of the work in bringing a lot more in line. The limbo spawn adjustment truly helped offset that nerf and everything’s feels solid.
I’ve played tested HS quite extensively. A buff to the duration would bring it to a spot where even with Harper you have meaningful choice. Go monk for someone needing defensive utility / evasion / skills / AC. Go Harper, if buffed duration for more offensive options. The duration being so short now makes the HS worthless for anyone. Versus all classes having a place at the table of meaningful choice.
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