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Post by xakila on Dec 8, 2020 8:00:13 GMT
Posted this is another thread, but how about a pandect with sf concentration and improved combat casting.
Cause sometimes you need to start casting after running and chugging, and the combat casting mode doesn't always work in the queue without attacking and wasting a round to go off.
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Post by chainlink on Dec 8, 2020 14:09:30 GMT
One thing to bear in mind is to be able to use a Pandect you need to be level 55 and Minauros tagged and by time you get to this point you'll likely have optimised your playstyle and find something better to use.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 8, 2020 14:19:19 GMT
When I raised this with the team the concern was it would dilute the pandect pool further with an option that would seldom be used over other available choices.
Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 8, 2020 17:24:21 GMT
Any thoughts on these, people?:
Pandect of Darkest Secrets - Combat Casting: - Grants Combat Casting and Improved Combat Casting
Pandect of Darkest Secrets - Expertise: - Grants Expertise and Improved Expertise
Pandect of Darkest Secrets - Armor Proficiency: - Grants 2 ranks of armor proficiency
Pandect of Darkest Secrets - Power Attack: - Grants Power Attack and Improved Power Attack
Pandect of Darkest Secrets - Skill Mastery: - Grants Skill Focus in Concentration, Discipline, Parry, and Tumble
Pandect of Darkest Secrets – Skulduggery - Grants Skill Focus in Disable Trap, Open Lock and Search
Pandect of Darkest Secrets - Oratory - Grants Skill Focus in Bluff, Intimidate, Taunt, and Persuade
Pandect of Darkest Secrets - Academia - Grants Skill Focus in Appraise, Heal, Lore, and Spellcraft
Pandect of Darkest Secrets - Concealment - Grants Skill Focus in Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot
Funky
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Post by chirality on Dec 8, 2020 18:07:47 GMT
Combat Casting / ICC -- honestly, no one responded to this in the other thread either, because it's something only a relatively inexperienced player and builder would imagine as useful or suggest in the first place. No offense intended, but this idea doesn't merit any conversation. By the same token, any caster w.out need for Shield pandect would go for one of the SFs, especially due to the NWN stacking rules which ensure even a lowly +2 SF is incrementally/marginally useful at virtually any level of richness/level (namely, Lore, Disc, Pers maybe).
Free Expertise and Power Attack are huge. Stay away.
Armor Proficiency is a joke (just like XRs that provide)--worthless and not even worthy of discussion
Various SFs -- Some could arguably "save" a "aug slot" on certain cases (mostly swap-ons, even), but in general, yeah, these would be somewhere on the spectrum of completely worthless <--> worse than existing pandects (esp after loooooooong-overdue BF update) for tanks, or virtually no-brainer for casters that don't need shieldprof (or absolutely not, for those that do).
With the BF/LSA Listen change, I think pandects got enough of a shakeup to last quite a while. These ideas would only serve to dilute the pool and really be a giant pain in the ass, especially for non-vets who would have a far lower chance of farming the same tier1 pandects that vets already farmed/traded for. Please don't add any more--ever, honestly. It's long been mentioned that casters get a free ESF (=3 feats) which is ginormous in impact, yet tanks at best get ~1-2, and that's only on the rarest/most precious pandects, and only for tanks that can really benefit; however, addressing this disconnect would be better served, imo, by adding a new type of item in a separate loot table, not adding more here. Again, tomes are a joke to acquire and have no % basis, which only adds to their ubiquity and "assumed at any level of playtime/career" placement in standard buildtheory 101 (unlike pandects, which are an order of magnitude apart; again, especially the best ones).
Casters already get epic tomes, shield pandect is applicable and so valuable that it's top-tier loot already, but adding more caster-beneficial pandects would make little sense to me.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 8, 2020 18:33:37 GMT
It's long been mentioned that casters get a free ESF (=3 feats) which is ginormous in impact, yet tanks at best get ~1-2, and that's only on the rarest/most precious pandects, and only for tanks that can really benefit; however, addressing this disconnect would be better served, imo, by adding a new type of item in a separate loot table, not adding more here. You mean by, for example, giving them four free feats worth of stats in LL?  This was part of our team discussion this morning. Funky |
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Post by woqued on Dec 8, 2020 18:48:15 GMT
Assuming these would have a new drop place entirely not competing with Minauros pandects, and would also be readable at 55?
Skulduggery: Rogue splashing characters minmaxing rogue utility without needing auged/green added gear could be useful, but would a lootmage use this over shield pandect? Lootcleric may use it, on an active tank/frontline aura/epic bot (of any kind) I'd always use expertise pandect and laugh my way all the way to the bank.
Concealment/Skill Mastery: nice skills (Hide,Listen // Conc,Disc,Parry) but is it worth? I feel like skill focus is just too little even when in good skills for a pandect. Other existing pandects like sneak attacks/kd/disarm etc seem superior.
Power Attack, potentially "too strong", in particular for subraces with Cleave + Great Cleave, read Power Attack at 55, take OC/DC at 57/60, smile with newly saved +1 feat and also getting Imp. Power attack for when your ab is enough to pull it off. Alternatively for characters that don't take power attack for OCDC natively such as some gigadexer with high AB, Lash maybe - or people utilizing OC/DC auged random items/set items with AB to pull off the combat mode.
**Expertise pandect seems straight up too good/abuseable, Supportive casters, aura bot characters would get "free" +10 ac when you throw them forward without feat investment that would impede their access to epics, tankability, rogue utility, and I don't know who would really need this.
Combat casting... Not super fired up about, but maybe would end up reading on some stuff, like a fat low-ac Pariah maybe unable to avoid AoO trying to GV in close quarters. I don't value this very highly, and it wouldn't do what the Original Poster wanted; you will still AoO stuff and lose that round not-casting.
Other than those, just flat skill focus in a somewhat random assortment of skills isn't too impressive, but if you have no other pandects to use well then extra is extra but they seem pretty meh to me, could be undervaluing SF:x feats, who knows. I considered them "fluff to add on set items" or something you aug in when desperate...
... W-w-what about monks?! Where's the +4-8 free stats for Monks?! They also have less epic feats, only one for every 5! 3/4 BAB! There's a reason we see more non-monks splashing monk than monks splashing non-monks!!!111 Ok I'm semi-kidding here, I am aware of certain Monk class powers being strong. But only semikidding! Damnit! +4 wis please and thank you, Fistkicky Monks are BACK
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 8, 2020 19:51:20 GMT
Assuming these would have a new drop place entirely not competing with Minauros pandects, and would also be readable at 55? Yup, I think would have to be separate. Not a crazy place to go. Where are CC monks at these days? One of the classes not touched on much during the edits. Funky |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 20:10:48 GMT
Any SF pandects would need more. I think existing pandects should be SF/ESF minimum to even begin approaching the conversation of your more top tier pandects. A lot are garbage tier and never used as is.
Sneak attack took a huge hit with Wraps dying and a source of your base sneak going away. Your prime time pandects are mainly Disarm and Shield in my opinion.
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Post by manuka on Dec 8, 2020 21:05:27 GMT
Sneak attack took a huge hit with Wraps dying and a source of your base sneak going away. Your prime time pandects are mainly Disarm and Shield in my opinion. You dont need base sneak for sneak pandect to work |
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Post by xakila on Dec 8, 2020 21:09:57 GMT
Doesn't imcomb casting mean you never get aoo for casting, and since you need to roll concentration every time you cast in comb casting mode dont you have a chance to auyofail every spell on a 1 when using the mode?
I know i face circumstances often where to get into combat casting mode would either flatfooting x amount of time or burn a round swinging at things, often that i dont want to swing at. Or often running towards a spot trying to avoid something ill auto engage and have to wait for combat casting to egage if i dont want 6 aoos which often sometimes make me fail concentration by experience.
With druid torch prob less of an issue but for base druid without torch there are MANY times im already doing the wasd push trying to get into position, and that flatfoot time combined with waiting for combat cast to kick in can be killer.
If its too weak for a pandect (figured pandects could be added to other places) add it to the dragon blood that gives combat casting. If its too strong for that (being an uneccessary convenience in some peoples minds) then its not useless as others suggest, so maybe a low rarity aug. As is its a nice nwn feat that helps when you have latency issues but unrealistic to fit in when you have to take the useless( after level 20) required feat.
Was just an idea, may be pointless to you but handy for others. Just thought with sources of minor free feats (bloods and pandects) that ICCast would be a nice qol addition for some (like me).
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Post by Lil' Mikey (Msowby2) on Dec 8, 2020 21:36:46 GMT
Not a crazy place to go. Where are CC monks at these days? One of the classes not touched on much during the edits. Funky Monk CC currently performs fine, it's utility and misc immunities make it a handy tank and fairly 'easy' to gear, and lots of flex with building. That being said it was never top damage, but looking at it's competition it did reasonable damage. My only consideration would be to restore Staff 2handed dmg to give monk CC a little more versatility and build flexibility (spice up wpn selection). At the very least make Staff fall under the Flurry weapons (thought this was slated/said to be implemented but put on the shelf?) Also making the staff dmg increase to only monk CC could be a workaround if SM still seen as too OP. Just my two cents, I will enjoy playing mine in any case  |
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 8, 2020 22:59:02 GMT
My only consideration would be to restore Staff 2handed dmg to give monk CC a little more versatility and build flexibility (spice up wpn selection). We wanted to do this when we dropped to 10%, but it'll need a plugin edit, so we have to wait. Funky |
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Post by woqued on Dec 8, 2020 23:09:45 GMT
Derail, sorry.
Yeah, Monks are still good because they have such excellent, even uniquely awesome and easy to use sources of concealment, critical immunity and mind immunity three-in-one. They are a good midway choice for a player, picking speed at demix1 and becoming very easy to execute at demix2. Good Physical immunity granted if they go STR based (1/2 str mod). Endgame, their lack of offenses become glaringly obvious and that's why we don't see many CC monks going around. Their offensive tools are basically limited to Quivering Palm, and that's why we don't see Monks played much at the very very endgame: other stuff can do monk-like things while doing flat out significantly more DMG, with higher AB, with better Stats against stat checks, and while Mind immunity is convenient you can gear around it, get same effect but more bang for your buck.
Access to Hide from Splashes/Stealthy becoming more popular and Monks losing out on too much splash power from other classes if they have high amount of Monk levels (basically anything above 31) means their concealment isn't that much superior in numbers compared to anyone with Hide, or castertank with EV (upside: not dispellable).
Common monk builds are 30/5/5 type, 30 monk 5 of ftr/wm/harper <- pick 2, in some cases may splash 2-3 paladin/bg. Now PDK might enter the fray as an option as well as a 5 class splash. An oddball option may even be something with much less Monk levels to fit more FTR lvls for bonus feats, or to fit Honing weapons, or something along those lines to make up for Monks inherent lack of offensive tools. Pure monks are a waste of thought, not worth. Bab problems, amount of attacks/ab are low, no damage, no save sources, no crits... Just good Concealment and AC, BBoD with once-per-rest Quivering Palm. Fist monks were crap for the longest time now; not sure where they sit now with new update, I'm not sure anyone has XR monk gloves yet to test them out. Also not sure on how strong Stunning Fist is.
Biggest problem with CC Monks currently is that something else splashing monk and stealing their AC/Monk attack progression almost always outperforms going Monk. Other classes receiving either better benefits be it Full T1 BAB, Extra stats, more feats, sources of damage/attacks... Fighter splashing monk is like a monk in terms of being a dodgy bastard concealment (double conceal, edodge), without critical immunity, but with access to massive amounts of feats, stats and even damage (honing) over Monk. When once upon a time Monks were king, slowly everyone else has creeped up with features, free stats and ways of converting their excess feats to other stuff, or just excess stat creep while just dumping a level or two into Monk to copy their signature moves.
I would be cautious about buffing monks in significant ways - their defenses are so good that if they also were to also compete in all the other ways with competition they would immediately take top spot of any party setup as main dmg tank. It is hard to say where Fistmonks stand currently, but I'm 100% sure that if you want to use monk weapons to maximum effect, going CC:Monk is never the optimal answer. Lower ab, lower amount of feats, lower stats... Monks are outperformed by others in classic NWN monkness, this was the case even before WMs received their "Hey, play me!" call for running 30wm and either 3-4 pal 6 monk or 9 monk 1 pal, depending on whether you value div might or Improved Evasion. Outmonking monks hands down.
TLDR: They aren't bad. They're just not as good as the rest, others splashing monk do monk things better than the monks themselves, due to lower amount of stats, feats, dmg available to Monks.
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Post by witlak on Dec 9, 2020 11:47:39 GMT
What about a dual wielder pandect? 2 feats of the 3 dual wielder feats.
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This was part of our team discussion this morning.
