Bane Knight Spell Pen Calc

[Talamanthalon]

Can someone confirm? With the recent changes to +1 spell pen per 3 Paragon Levels?
Trying to figure out if dropping all spell pen feats are worth it.
I'm seeing that Level 80, +16 Gear, 70 Str. is the minimum to equal all of the Spell Pen feats?

=====================================
Spell Resistance Check
d20 + caster level + spell penetration vs. SR
=====================================

Build Effects of Str: 66 (+28) (+14 gear and Lvl 60)
Spell Pen Bonus for BK: Str mod / 4 = 28/4 = +7 to spell pen

Stat Increases: Starting 66 Str.+28)
Paragon Levels/+16
Str: 68/70 = Bonus +30/4 = 7 + 3 (80 Paragon) = +10 Spell Pen
So Spell Resistance Check:

d20 + 60 (CL) + 10 = 71 (Minimum)
d20 + 60 (CL) + 10 = 90 (Maximum)

Stat Increases: Starting 70 Str.+30)
Demi/Double Demi/Artie
Str: 72/74/76 = Bonus +33/4 = 8 + 3 (80 Paragon) = +11 Spell Pen

So Spell Resistance Check:
d20 + 80 (CL) + 11 = 72 (Minimum)
d20 + 80 (CL) + 11 = 91 (Maximum)

[woqued]

Drop SP feats, they don't stack with your STR mod SPen. There's no way it's worth spending the feats.

[Talamanthalon]

I know, I'm asking someone to check my math of spell pen using Str. only. For build purposes.

First three questions on the main post are:

Can someone confirm? With the recent changes to +1 spell pen per 3 Paragon Levels?
Trying to figure out if dropping all spell pen feats are worth it.
I'm seeing that Level 80, +16 Gear, 70 Str. is the minimum to equal all of the Spell Pen feats?

[woqued]

I surmised you know, and I figured out the build purposes part. My answer/opinion: not worth. Would you pay 5 feats for +2-3 spen on a BK, even if you don't land even?

Answer to question: there's almost no way it's worth no matter what. You're spending so many feats to get a minor SP increase even in best case scenario which you could've spent, for example, on GSTR feats for +1 (sp/gsp/esp/lsp/psp = 5 feats, at least 3 of those can translate to GSTR feats, likely 4 due to lack of access to a large amount of bonus feats) it's hard to make the case for it to be worth it no matter how you cook it on a class that isn't primarily a spellcaster even if you have less str than what you surmised. Even under best case scenario where you'd have like 60 STR only, you'd be paying 5 feats for +3 spen.

If someone can answer if that BK special +3 spell pen counts as part of the STR mod that doesn't stack with SPen feats, that'd seal the deal. It might be stackable with SPEN feats as well.

Well, just an opinion. Feel free to ignore it.

[Raj]

Dec 13, 2020 20:00:02 GMT Talamanthalon said:

=====================================
Spell Resistance Check
d20 + caster level + spell penetration vs. SR
=====================================

So Spell Resistance Check:
d20 + 80 (CL) + 11 = 92 (Minimum)
d20 + 80 (CL) + 11 = 111 (Maximum)

Caster level is capped at 60 CL, it doesn't include paragon levels, except to calculate the effectiveness of some epic/paragon spells. Your SP calculations are off, they'd cap at d20+60+(feats or strmod+3).

SP Feats are never worth on a properly built bk.

[Talamanthalon]

Thanks appreciate it, was wondering why the check was coming out so high. 60 CL cap makes sense now.

[FunkySwerve]

Anyone with suggestions on how to make the feats an effective option (ie, worth it to some builds), we're open to suggestions.

Funky

[chirality]

Sure, just let them stack. BK is already restricted by feats, even with wearing the free evo armor. With more spells of different schools added to the list, every additional foci that can't be taken is a loss, and every SP feat taken would subtract from either combat/tankability feats, or spell flexibility and power.

With Str serving as AB, dmg, DC, and SP, the only reasonable way to allow SP feats to serve a functional role would be to fine-tune some complex formula that allows for Str to be reduced in favor of pure SP (at a loss of DC, dmg, and AB). Redoing the entire structure would probably make more sense, and/or reducing the number of desirable/viable/"needed" schools, such as deleting Evo from the equation entirely (by letting hands scale off Str alone, or another school, whichever is more favorable for a given build, and then replacing ESF evo on the plate w/ ESP [since esf in any other school makes little sense, with free epic providing zero/negligible value for abj, div, and ench, with benefits best scaling @leg+, or DC-based illus/nec) or a flat +bigby AB increase that serves the same function as evo3 in substitution), or having other spells benefit from a "cross-school" dynamic as found in limited extent amongst other spell lists; for example, pick a school that has the smallest # of BK spells and allow them to be treated as a different school to help make building easier.

Some direct "even-out" formula such as "if SP ranks >= Str SP, then SP stacks to X value or Y portion of SP ranks is extracted and combined or Z portion of Str SP is extracted and combined into total" would be possible, but it's extremely difficult to theorize any way for a combination of Str and SP feats to provide either expanded build options or promote diversity. The class itself is essentially predicated upon the concept of using Str for SP, so unless you're ok with allowing them to become limited-scope (aka, any build can only have a tiny # of foci-ranked-spells) SP powerhouses and allow feats+Str SP to stack cumulatively past the point of either featranks or Str mod alone, then either one or the other case will be simply better and the no-brainer build path to follow.

Given the power of pariah as a debuffer against high-SR choice foes, I actually think this would be a viable (not to mention highly-suitable, flavorwise) niche for BKs to pursue. In such a case, a build option could be to take a hit in tank-metrics and spell flexibility (already extremely limited), both offensively and defensively, in exchange for a PM/pariah-ish specialty role of having huge SP/DC to land critical debuffs such as BC and serve as valuable members of endgame parties as both enablers for other classes as well as expanding the pool of classes to choose from for fielding such a role.

[Talamanthalon]

I'm in agreement that SP boosts are needed on BK's.
I think an even equal issue is that the Quasi is so feat tight to make it viable melee wise, that the HUGE range of caster schools they have access to is actually stifled by the fact that the DC for non-Epic/Legendary/Paragon feats nullifies the DC viability of all of those schools.

The class suffers an identity crisis, across all of these schools. As it has so many options, but can only realistically focus on 1, maybe 2 of these schools effectively. Which is fine for "flavor", no two BK's being quite the same, but suffers in the goal of achieving effectiveness.

I agree that DC/SP/AB/DMG should all be worked off of STR as the core stat and not "spell focus/spell pen" feats. Either the amount of different schools should be "limited" if the goal was to only make them effective in 1 or 2 schools or make them effective at all of the schools they have spells in.

Alternatively, giving them a specific identity might be better. Str. based for all checks, limit the schools down some and make the effects AOE based, much like the AOE Vamp touch ability at 60. The whole class is focused on "single target" across it's melee and spells. This serves to make the player decide if the spell is worth casting at the loss of melee damage. The AOE vamp touch is a perfect example of an easy decision between single target melee damage versus utility via AOE.

Example, an small/medium AOE Bigby hand is often a very easy decision if the goal is to be a melee controller.

[FunkySwerve]

Dec 14, 2020 18:01:39 GMT chirality said:

Sure, just let them stack. . . .

This was considered, but probably not enough. I was toying with the notion of having them get a flat -5 SP and allowing the feats. Still not sure where that falls in the balance of things.


Funky

[chirality]

That's an interesting option which I hadn't thought of, although...yikes. I think that would translate to more of an objective nerf than an increase in build options. Feats are just so limited, and there's so much to take as a tank that combines the strict requirements of a DC-maxing class (needing to max out Str for their SP--to be clear, this is aside from DC itself), such as a pure caster, with the hybrid requirements of being a "DC max tank" (such as an assassin or ranger), that must serve as a tank while also having maxed primary stat; and then being a hybrid tank-caster on top.

The latest SP buff was very appreciated, and honestly I think it went a long way toward making up for the traditional deficiencies of the past.

The expanded BK spell list was also appreciated, but again, this factor will only be harmed with further build restrictions such as being "required" or encouraged to pursue SP feats on top of high (even if not maxed) Str and then squeezing foci as well.

If anything, my big(gest?) concern--other than the Str SP calc, which, much like fistmonk Wis +enh formula, was/is brutally unforgiving and a primary cause for "class dissatisfaction"--is that Evo seems to exist solely because of bigby's; the school itself absolutely doesn't fit anywhere within BK's overarching theme/flavor/feel or implementation.

I'd really recommend addressing this, because if a BK wants to use BBs (which is a good chunk of the archetype--and happens to be in direct contrast to the abj/div/ench/nec flair of everything else they do), they are pushed to use Evo or the armor that gives free Evo; pretty unsatisfying, imo. Getting rid of this entirely would be helpful for establishing a baseline for the interplay of feats/school foci/SP ranks/Str and how it fits together when determining a potential marriage of StrSP and featSP. So long as multiple schools and maxed Str are "required" to leverage all of a BK's spellcasting prowess, let alone their functionality as tanks in the first place, it's difficult to envision SP feats fitting into the picture without being a burden.

[desocupado]

Dec 14, 2020 16:20:59 GMT FunkySwerve said:

Anyone with suggestions on how to make the feats an effective option (ie, worth it to some builds), we're open to suggestions.

Funky

BK are feat starved. I'd say picking "close combat oriented feats" instead of an spell school is already enough "build options".
If anything, I'd rather see the "spell penetration" feat family removed from all classes (because it's never an option to not take them)

[woqued]

Dec 14, 2020 18:48:33 GMT FunkySwerve said:

Dec 14, 2020 18:01:39 GMT chirality said:

Sure, just let them stack. . . .

This was considered, but probably not enough. I was toying with the notion of having them get a flat -5 SP and allowing the feats. Still not sure where that falls in the balance of things.


Funky

Net negative for the class, you lose tanking power (because now you have to take SP feats to land in a position of pre-patch SP - while max is higher, or ignore casting even more than earlier, effectively being same BK as before -(3 to 5) feats) This would drive BKs towards spellcasting, for which we already have cool casters for. We don't have a cool evil castertank, rather drive them that way.


Currently, and the past few patches have reinforced this, BK niche is a good sword&board tank, working as a secondary spellcaster for duties like bb9, Weird, PWK, bestow, mind fog, G dispel, Antipathy... Depending on need, and as such is also one of the best users for the Ego that grants GSF to all schools. Weaponbuff changes of late for +2 dice if selfcasted compared to someone else doing it has made them a rather strong option for an interesting tank for lowman parties and new players as a class self-buffing Tenser, CEF + D. Yes, for new players! DB weapons and such are awesome for BK atm. Would rather move them further along the route they've been on rather than trying to make them budget PM/Pariahs, those classes fill their niches rather well and if they don't then buff them instead. 

Alternatively, if you want to bring a more Caster oriented BK to the table, consider doing those changes in the realm of CC Sorc BK's - give them the fully stacking spen with STR mod. They lose the +4str/cha of BG, but would end up gaining a net gain of SP for BK spells, losing out on capped DC. 

I honestly don't think a blanket change is currently needed on BKs. They can wait a bit to see where they end up after people toy with this patch a bit. But, you could consider giving them some sort of Herald_of_Storms treatment, where upon qualifying for BK they gain some form of feat access for free, as a class that requires a stat spread of STR/DEX/INT/WIS/CHA just for basic performance as a frontline caster split to several base stats, or copy some unique aspects of the Stormlord, where certain BaneKnight-like spells gain unique properties as BK. 

Examples, just fulfilling my personal fantasies really not necessarily balanced: 

Ench: Mind Fog inflicting with it ghastly darkness impeding the enemies' senses, giving them a 10% chance to miss on attacks and fail spell casting.  
Illusion: BaneKnight Weird leaves a veil of despair in a persistent effect in the area, doing.. Something BK like, demoralize enemies, inflict, do damage, apply slow, if targeted on one enemy have them crucified by the phantasm causing persistent damage and locking them in place akin to bb9 but checking vs Fear. 
Abjuration: Energy Immunity also protects against Vile, CL/6%. 
Illusion: Shadow Shield also applies the effect of Augury on it, scaling with Illusion instead of the usual Divination of augury cast by Clerics. 
Necromancy: Vampiric Touch is applied on a weapon instead of foes, grants the targeted weapon Vampiric Regen CL/6? No idea what's appropriate.
Evocation: Bigby's Clenched Fist punches through with such strength that it breaks any spell shields on the target.
Trans: Bestow Curse... dunno, PM/Pariah/Bard/Sorc spell imo, screw BKs with it, let them have other cool stuff.  

See how many schools there are for the spells they use, for something that has to take tanking feats too and gets no epics? Only Conj is really missing. It's a GOOD Thing they don't need to go for SP feats as a class that also needs weapon/melee/tank feats and again doesn't get epics. They could use some sort of streamlining or at least have a few spells specialized for BK that work if they pick a certain school of magic. Heralds are the ENCH/Conj, Pariahs are Transmutation. PMs are Necromancy. Maybe BaneKnights could be... I don't know, I like them as an archetypical uber bufftank honestly, they just don't do it as well as Clerics do. 

[tomaan]

Dec 14, 2020 16:20:59 GMT FunkySwerve said:

Anyone with suggestions on how to make the feats an effective option (ie, worth it to some builds), we're open to suggestions.

Funky

Use them to replace combat/improved combat casting (i.e. you get those feats when you take LSP, PSP)

Use them to boost Spell DC (should be more efficient than using the feats on Greater INT/WIS).

Can you use them to simulate defensive/counterspell modes? IE:

• DEFENSIVE CASTING - Each Spell Pen feat gives you a +XX bonus against attacks of opportunity (or bypasses them altogether)
• COUNTERSPELL - Spell Pen feats give you XX "free" counterspells....that is you will counter an enemy caster without going into counterspell mode or using a spell slot

[Talamanthalon]

See how many schools there are for the spells they use, for something that has to take tanking feats too and gets no epics? Only Conj is really missing. It's a GOOD Thing they don't need to go for SP feats as a class that also needs weapon/melee/tank feats and again doesn't get epics. They could use some sort of streamlining or at least have a few spells specialized for BK that work if they pick a certain school of magic. Heralds are the ENCH/Conj, Pariahs are Transmutation. PMs are Necromancy. Maybe BaneKnights could be... I don't know, I like them as an archetypical uber bufftank honestly, they just don't do it as well as Clerics do. 

To go off what Woqued stated specifically in bold. I think the real core issue is, seldom is it worth it to "cast" a BK spell instead of just going into melee, especially with how effective other casters are at all of the existing Bane Knight options. I think if you keep spell feats, greater/epic/leg/paragon, these feats should allow those schools a "benefit" over just melee. Again, I think this is the real core problem.

I really think a simple fix of allow the feats themselves to turn the spell into medium/large/huge AOE radius, only for those schools you take the feats on, really would help a lot. This allows the BK to effect multiple targets on their spells, which easily creates the incentive to cast it. I'm not saying this is "the" only idea, I'm just saying whatever fix there is really needs to create an incentive to use the spell itself. When I play BK I'm always measuring my ability to just smash something versus taking the chance at casting, which often results in a missed spell, etc.

As far as Funky is concerned;

He's usually weighing dev time vs. effectiveness of the fix. In that case I think just a simple raw SP/DC increase gets the job done. Question about ways to increase justification for taking the spell feats is answered by the AOE addition. Again this still suffers from "fitting in" the spell pen. feats. So that still needs to be answered. I do think the answer is as previously stated by Chirality, is to just make the spell pen bonus tie to the spell schools they've chosen as "feats". Make them hyper specialized for SP on the schools they've chosen.

If you go the AOE route and make all spells "small" AOE base. This does help with casting spells that you aren't "focused" in, which helps to alleviate the huge list of schools that you can choose from. As the multiple target option still allows you to cast less effective spells across more targets, which increases their reason to cast them/choose them.

A limitation on the AOE option, because I know "AOE" Bigby hands might seem OP is to allow a !channel like command that would allow you to spend multiple slots on the AOE. I'm assuming coding for this is more extensive. Separate from !channel like command, would be to reduce the effectiveness per target hit, etc. Shortened duration on the Bigby line, etc.

As far as Woqued's point;
About the "Ego" gear helping. I agree that when you have the gear it helps alot. However, without the gear it detracts players from wanting to play the class until they have the gear. The class itself should be good at what it does and gear should be secondary to increase flexibility in build, effectiveness etc.