Almost mandatory items...

[FunkySwerve]

Dec 21, 2020 3:16:08 GMT woqued said:

Dec 21, 2020 3:12:51 GMT manuka said:

Greater sanctuary also needs to be removed asap

Can you stop? Go to festering oubliette and vent your frustration there, or just suck it up and grow up. Stop trolling and derailing different threads with your mental leakage

A personal suggestion here, Manuka. I get that it's hard to have your favorite build nerfed, especially after so much time honing and tuning runs with it. I get that the edit, however necessary, decreased your fun in playing. Sorry.

Mechanus is coming soon - sooner than you think. You might want to just take a break for a week or two, maybe play something else. Mechanus will be the same level-tier as Limbo, but will play quite differently, presenting fresh challenges.

Until that happens, though, sour grapes on the forums aren't going to accomplish anything, and harboring grievances like this is not doing you any favors either.

Funky

[xakila]

As someone who started and still mains a druid, I will say that playing a druid doesn't really feel like you're able to do your job well pre-torch. The radius increase seems more than double in effectiveness when you factor in how combat actually plays out, and changes the game to where druiding actually feels good.

Between large hitboxes, random and split spawns, and moving spawns/rubberbanding.. Nbs natural "large" radius just doesnt cut it even with a decent amount of spell slots, especially if you plan on doing other things like hitting your instant kill targets pretorch. Torch isn't just qol, especially when NB is the central druid task.

I dont know how bard feels to play, but looking at it as bards integral role base curse song looks to be 10 metre radius (same as prayer, while btide is large like nb) according to wiki (collosal) as opposed to 5 metre of base NB, so one could argue that the bard song radius armor is more on the qol side, at least compared to druid torch which due to the lower base radius is less effective increase in aoe. Even with torch nb doesnt have curse song aoe.

Considering that druids are a core new players are suggested to play, would be nice if they felt more effective without the torch-gate. Specially when the torch is a low droprate item in an out of the way spot. I finally have one now, but would not suggest druid as a class for newer players if they didnt have access to one already.


In my dream world nb radius would increase with foci like fonts, to eventually reaching natural prayer/curse song radius at lsf ( or even gargantuan... Heck huge at esf would be an improvement) . And maybe change torch to either giving a targetted aoe version or give the druid a dc bonus on any mob affected by nb (or even just a non stacking save penalty for affected mobs would be awesome, not only is druids core feature pathetic in comparative aoe but druids are the only caster class without a mechanism for reducing saves outside perinarch).

Anyways just my 2c as a druid player who played alot before finally achieving torch status.

[shendelzare]

Bard is pretty much my most played class so far (other than my old sorc), and while I'm not the most experienced player, I can say I would never play without the curse armor unless I had to (ie, leveling new bard and before getting the tag).
Without the curse armor, a lot of Hells pulls would end up getting only 40-50% of the enemies cursed, because it won't reach the ones in the back and a lot of areas are narrow hallways where you can't even run around the first few enemies to curse the ones in the back.
I don't necessarily have a problem with being forced to use the curse armor, but it would obviously be cool to be able to use other armors instead (although as a Bard I'd probably still have to use a bard armor for the displace effect).

[xakila]

Bard armor is more qol imho, you get tons of curses not tied to slot equips and curse is non concentration based and faster, and hitting 50% of a spawn is something a non torched druid dreams of depending on how spawns play out. I believe there are even robe and light armor options for the increased radius allowing flexibility with qol.

But curse song is ok at base compared to non torch druid (half the radius ...sometimes more important of an effect). Curse armor is a qol bonus, compared to druid torch which is almost mandatory to be effective without constant resting on most of the high levels ive run getting to 78 (torch achieved at 77 maybe 76, so lots of pretorch experience) so youre limited in how many other spells you have avail (lots of good or important things on 8 and 9 you are limited with if yer slotting 20+ nbs).

Would possibly be different if nb wasn't often one of the most important combat spells that does little on it's own, but i found druids (especially learning the mod and what works on what and what needs to be green or doesnt matter) nerve wracking when running monsters and split spawns or large hitboxes meant i was lucky if i only used 2 or 3 nbs per spawn. Especially on runs where druids other spells are important (ants etc) where running around trying to stay alive and green what needed to be greened was not only slots but time needed for your other duties. Lots of learning curve and bard is the only other class accused of slacking nearly as much as druid if you dont have yer duties covered.

So I consider torch almost mandatory for effective druiding to feel good like other classes, and the lowish drop rate in an out of the way zone is kinda a bummer, but after many high level runs without it its VERY satisfying to have finally achieved it, even if overall my survivability is lower without the shield (aka sacrificing shield to get the "necessary" radius increase cancels a druids innate ability to not only use shield but the mods ability to get partial wis ac bonus equipping it... almost as if for a fighter to get the parry conceal they had to give up epic weapon spec).

There's a difference between meaningful choices and practically mandatory ones which are gated and cancel other class benefits imho, every effective druid is going to wear wraps and torch (if they can get it, and some wont try druid without having torch beforehand). Basically requiring torch means one less slot to flex eq or augs and cancels out some class benefits, on top of it being relatively hard to get as "mandatory" druiding equipment.

A simple change of nbs base aoe to current torch levels (or even huge would be a huge improvement) and making torch either extra radius on top of that or something else would probably feel alot better and make torch a little less "must-have" and more "cool to have"), or perhaps having a torch with that effect put in hells/abyss with a better drop rate (add it to torch of azzragat!) and replacing the one in abos with a small shield that does the same (as a natural shield using class who can even get some wis ac with a shield it's funny how druids are the ones losing so much oomph by wearing one.)

Just opinions of course, my experience is with the druid aspect but its probably important since... well, druids seem to underplayed yet very important for reasons. As a specialized largely support caster their primary duty feeling subjectively bad pre torch could be a factor on why druids are often underplayed.

[horbag]

as far as i understand, if the torch was changed to a shield it would solve a lot of the issues regarding survivabilety ? (don't play druid, don't like druid, but need one on my runs)
i do agree that the standard nb radius is super low doe non torch users, seeing people on their first hell cycle and you are not sure if it is the radius or if the druid is just slacking, and why they keep running out of greens when notting is green (i know you are all doing what you can)

as a bard player the only downside i find to the set loot we need is that you can not randomize it, i used to have a nicely randomized uro armour i was using, now i need the abyss one but it has no chanse to ever get epic good like other gear pieces or just crap, depending the roll ofc, but i never complain about a nice imm added to my stuff as it does give you some wiggle room and fit in some uber pieces wich in the end makes it so worth the grind (great gloves with acid imm 70%+ acid imm, random confiusion imm, even seen weird imm added)

[swingking]

Druid abo tourch is not a must have unless you are a lazy druid aka bot. Yes its not an easy job to NB All in one go but I surgest pick those high sr TARGETS first.If you do use the Abo tourch it comes with a cost of ac. Fair trade. Raj has a Nice guide to it.
About bard armors. Please dont take the Joy out of finding uro, hell, abyss armors. Its a part of the game and if it was to easy No one caress.

Cheers Jan

[Deleted]

Druids using any torch still end up with 142+ AC, and that doesn’t count turtle shell.

[xakila]

Dec 28, 2020 10:40:57 GMT swingking said:

Druid abo tourch is not a must have unless you are a lazy druid aka bot. Yes its not an easy job to NB All in one go but I surgest pick those high sr TARGETS first.

Cheers Jan

One could also argue that sorces having aoe or ranged spells as necessary is just lazy playing because they have no save touch spells of each element. It's not even not hitting them all in one go its often 3 or more per spawn depending on how it plays out. Not only slots but time you could/should be doing other things, and that's not including when it's impractible or impossible to even reach many targets. It's not a must have as in things can be done without it (you could play a sorc using nothing but chill touch and shocking grasp) but the base aoe sucks donkey balls and you run out fast and there's no arguing that,especially before you have full slot gear. If you aren't overleveled and well equiped its even more noticible. It seems no other class has to do as much juggling as druid cause of the miniscule aoe and that's part of why people shy away or wont play them without a torch. Is there a single player who has the option to use torch using a shield or even flexing it in? If not calling it lazy druiding isn't really a valid opinion.
I know if it wasn't for the eventuality of achieving a torch (which finally made druid feel good to play) I would have probably set aside the druid and played something (more) fun.

So ya not literally neccessary, but neither are weapon buffs or ranged spells.