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Post by boroie on Dec 28, 2020 1:05:43 GMT
That boils down to the everlasting melee vs. archer archetype in any environment. Exactly. And the key tenet there is archers dont get hit. Typically either they are much weaker and easier to hit, or they are harder to hit and do less damage (death of a thousand cuts). The issue being brought up here is that they are both harder to hit and do a lot of damage. The ability to change damage type midround is huge compared to a melee weapon switch. Also (other than yourself) 99% of parties do not go ranged only, hence most mobs go to the closest targets to the spawn point - ie the tanks. It just seems off to me that this is the case in HG. I've always liked archers from pnp days, but they never lived up to the promise. Here it seems a niche class kind of has a lot going for it. On HG I've played zen rangers and the damage outside of the insta has been pretty meh, but I see AA doing a lot of damage on hells/abyss runs.
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Post by tomaan on Dec 28, 2020 2:59:32 GMT
Is there any reason to make tanks anymore? Legitimate ask. AAs can do the same damage as tanks now and do not need XR weapons to do it. They are SO cheap to build and gear. 1/2 Kickback armor without defensive field? Check. COVD for exotic immunities and augury? Check. Immunity ring / dispel ring? Check. Alternatively, go mord boots, breach cloak, dispel ring, and imm ring. AAs can be built to make all the stat checks, they get all the relevant skills naturally, so can jam immunity augs. They can afford to go STR artifact, daze aug, etc and just be immune to everything. Why make tanks anymore? They also get insane AB and AC. And have no choices to make for gear or how / what to do, because they can do all of it. Every time. And again, cheaply. disarm taunt pickpocket damage resistance affliction breach on hit quite a few things tanks can do to help the party that AAs can't, just depends on your playstyle.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2020 4:06:49 GMT
You'd be running with cores. Bard can PP. 3 of your 4 cores naturally take PSF abjuration usually to strip buffs. I don't value disarm at all. Nor taunt. But, so still applicable I feel, but I see what you're saying.
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Post by tomaan on Dec 28, 2020 4:53:37 GMT
You'd be running with cores. Bard can PP. 3 of your 4 cores naturally take PSF abjuration usually to strip buffs. I don't value disarm at all. Nor taunt. But, so still applicable I feel, but I see what you're saying. I should probably also add: it's a good thing that you're asking, because it suggests more build diversity. Maybe you can't replace all tanks with AAs, but the changes make it more feasible to replace some of them.
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Post by yune on Dec 28, 2020 5:01:10 GMT
Hard to judge AA's damage numbers right now since they do 2d20 more than intended. Thing is, they provide none of the utility other tanks do like Ranger Invis Purge/CS, Battle cleric passive -5 to mob ab/saves + prayer for more on zero SR fumes, lash inflicts, RDD inflicts/gusts, etc.
And what's so bad about AA's being cheaper to build for less rich players? Since they scale with PL's they're not nearly as good until 80 compared to others who are at full capacity at 40 (without XR weps) or 70.
Being ranged is such a massive advantage it's difficult to overstate how good it is. You can target any mob in the spawn at any time, no need to get yourself surrounded to hit the caster or Aartaglith/Tomb Mote in the back, you're always on the highest priority target, zero downtime to running between targets or chasing mobs. If you're tanking you just stand next to the spawn. You're durable enough to tolerate the AoOs.
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Post by woqued on Dec 28, 2020 5:53:56 GMT
Wait, AAs are no longer utter and absolute dogshit? They're finally doing something along the lines of what they were supposed to all along?
Travesty!
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Post by chainlink on Dec 28, 2020 11:15:27 GMT
My AA can PP very effectively, yes I have to run up to stuff to do it but sometimes its worth the quick jog.
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Post by KnightErrant on Dec 28, 2020 19:44:46 GMT
Shifter Lash is pretty cheap race wise and easy to gear too.
Most AA's wear sneak gear and use sneak book yet spend a large portion/most of their time shooting outside of sneak range (and point blank range). I'm guessing most could "light up the logger" even more if they tried.
All that said logs don't really tell the true value of any melee ,IMHO, even if your going by damage done to top "this must die now" (usually crit immune) stuff there's almost always a melee or two dropping AC/conceal/resists etc.
Side note: Chaos Rocs and the healing circles in the Limbo boss fight where actually included to incentivize using/making ranged attack toons...best actual response I heard after Limbo was run a bunch "screw ranged, we'll just bot a extra cleric or two for eradicates" lol!
Rambling on: I do get that HG has been fairly stagnant the last few years with few, mostly minor, changes here and there...for those of us that have been here a long time that wasn't the case, stuff changed rather quickly in regards to classes/items/spells that were viewed as to powerful and/or too weak. Change is coming swiftly again and adjustments/tweaks being made.
For better or worse the game is no longer stagnant!
KE.
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