|
Post by jelricle on Jan 13, 2021 20:14:56 GMT
What is considered a good DC for shifter abilities (plus form rank or spell level)? How does one reach that?
The DC of shifter abilities is described as:
Base DC for non-spell abilities is equal to 10 + Form Rank (listed with each form) + Wis modifier + (foci * 3). Foci are described further below. For spell abilities Form rank is substituted by Spell level.
That seems to imply that the only effect you can have on DC is by increasing wisdom and having form focus.
- Start with 10 - So, if I started with 18 wisdom and max out my greater wisdoms before I start focusing on forms (10) and chose wisdom for each increase (10 PreLL, 10 LL and 2 PL), I would be at 50, plus 12 from equipment gives a total of 62 for a DC boost of 27 - If I max LFF, that gives +9 - Paragon fform focus gives an additional 2 - highest form rank or spell level is 9
So is the best possible DC 57? Less for the lower forms and spell levels? Am I missing something? Are there multiple Paragon form focus levels?
I know I am a newb, but even pre-legendary, mobs are getting close to that (without a roll! and I once saw somebody weeping about a DC of 51.
|
|
|
Post by tomaan on Jan 13, 2021 22:58:34 GMT
What is considered a good DC for shifter abilities (plus form rank or spell level)? So is the best possible DC 57? Less for the lower forms and spell levels? Am I missing something? Are there multiple Paragon form focus levels? I know I am a newb, but even pre-legendary, mobs are getting close to that (without a roll! and I once saw somebody weeping about a DC of 51. Don't underestimate the difference between a DC of 51 and a DC of 57 - that's like beating them on a 9 vs. beating them on a 15. That said, shifter DCs are comparable to caster DCs, which is 10 + spell level + feats + ability modifider. My personal goal for a primary ability is +25 at level 60 (pre-demi)....+27 if possible. That puts you at/around +30 by level 80.
|
|
|
Post by woqued on Jan 14, 2021 9:48:27 GMT
Burs at 60 give +14, XR/Set items of higher levels can give up to +16. Becoming a Demigod gives a further +2. Doing it again gives a further +2. Paragon stats (lvls between 60 and 80) end up giving a further +2 to stats. All of this adds up to another +5 DC, an Ego item would give another +1 to that respective form type.
|
|
|
Post by woqued on Jan 14, 2021 9:51:42 GMT
... And yes, you do require party support in many areas as Shifter to land your stuff. Curse song, prayer, battletide, fear aura, serendipity paragon cleric spell, eyebite, traps, stat dropping via stat/level drain, etc etc. Shifter DC's aren't anything to write home about, it's the fact that they don't roll vs SR - so they synergise particularly well with save dropping mechanics and work really well against monsters with high SR and low saves.
|
|
|
Post by chainlink on Jan 14, 2021 10:54:34 GMT
Also add in that while some of your abilities require you to regularly shift and unshift they also have unlimited uses per day unless you get amnesia'ed and if you encounter amnesia mobs or terrain you can pop a construct form (assuming you have taken them) to be immune to that effect.
|
|
|
Post by jelricle on Jan 14, 2021 18:52:26 GMT
Nice! Thanks so much.
I have been trying to figure out which LFF's to get. I am going to max wildshape, of course, but was trying to plan for that epode which gives level three for one shape. I am presently looking at humanoid, for the kobold traps (which so far have done good damage, even when the mobs succeed with their saves)
I thought I would spread out the last three just to get useful abilities. I was going to choose undead for vampire "Greater Sanctuary"; and also outsider for leonal rage and other auras. The last one would be dragon or outsider, but dragon only gives wing buffet, which I do not see myself using, often, particularly if I cannot get the DC up. Construct seems more promising with siege mode and demonflesh element immunity.
|
|
|
Post by desocupado on Jan 15, 2021 11:19:38 GMT
Humanoid has drow mortal strike, lizard vulnerability infliction and kobold traps as high points. On top of decent Ac and tankability.
This means you are sort of well served in terms of damage. Putting both dragon and outsider as low priority.
Undead and construct would be my main considerations.
Construct has iron golem poison (which isn't as good nowadays in hells), marut chain grapple (incapacitate spell casters), stone golem boulders (aoe physical damage is still nice). Prismatic golem isn't used often nor is flesh golem.
Undead has banshee instant death + saves decrease aura, baelhorn party DC and CL boost, Spectre level drain as main draws. Vampire gs is fun, and the domination gaze is very niche, while risen Lord lost a lot of appeal it had when two handed weapons did +40% damage and scythes had two damage types.
Construct is more straight forward to use, with beneficial immunities only (most undead are vulnerable to positive damage), while marut is quite reliable (if you see a caster, you probably can disable it from range) and checking poison vulnerability due iron golem.
|
|
|
Post by jelricle on Jan 15, 2021 16:37:20 GMT
Personally, I miss the 50% slashing and piercing immunity the Risen Lord had in the regular modules. :-) I hadn't thought of that use of the chain grapple. Thanks.
BTW, I love the new LFF Risen lord appearence. Baelnorn, though . . . demi-lich? Really? I feel like Mort from Planescape: Torment! Also, the new vampire looks great when I am moving, but do I really need to hover horizontally when I am standing still? I feel like a fool! :-D
|
|
|
Post by jelricle on Jan 15, 2021 16:48:27 GMT
Burs at 60 give +14, XR/Set items of higher levels can give up to +16. Becoming a Demigod gives a further +2. Doing it again gives a further +2. Paragon stats (lvls between 60 and 80) end up giving a further +2 to stats. All of this adds up to another +5 DC, an Ego item would give another +1 to that respective form type. Are those plusses from XR/Set/BUR items to wisdom ability? If so, how can BURs and XR/Set items give +14 and +16 to an ability? Has HG removed the +12 cap on ability increase? Is it specific to XR/Set/BUR items? I think I once saw a +14, but I assumed it was a coding glitch (eq randomization had added an increase on top of an existing benefit) and would have no more effect than wielding two +7 items (ie. the effect would just be +12) I think I already included the 2 from paragon levels (which I poorly abbreviated as PL) It sounds as though Demigodding can give a total of +4 to Wisdom, for a DC boost of +2 and Ego can give +1 DC to a form, so is the max DC 60? (62, if ability boost can be over 12) What is the typical save for mobs in the Abyss, Hell and other high level runs? What are typical legendary and paragon boss saves?
|
|
|
Post by chainlink on Jan 15, 2021 16:58:37 GMT
+12 is the maximum stat increase on an UR item, +14 is the maximum for a BUR item and +16 the maximum for an xR, set items from endgame areas can have stats that vary from +12 to +16 depending on what they start at and the level of the character wearing them. BUR items with innate stat boosts are set at +12 but can randomize to +14 or even have a green added stat property of +14 of an existing or different stat (randomization is pure luck). This artifact wiki.hgweb.org/wiki/To_Reign_in_Hell gives +12 to all stats which then increase to +16 when you achieve level 65, most shifter characters tend to use this though wiki.hgweb.org/wiki/Bastion_of_the_Fallen_Lord as it gives +16 Wisdom and other benefits for a shifter,
|
|
|
Post by woqued on Jan 15, 2021 17:36:17 GMT
Burs at 60 give +14, XR/Set items of higher levels can give up to +16. Becoming a Demigod gives a further +2. Doing it again gives a further +2. Paragon stats (lvls between 60 and 80) end up giving a further +2 to stats. All of this adds up to another +5 DC, an Ego item would give another +1 to that respective form type. Are those plusses from XR/Set/BUR items to wisdom ability? If so, how can BURs and XR/Set items give +14 and +16 to an ability? Has HG removed the +12 cap on ability increase? Is it specific to XR/Set/BUR items? I think I once saw a +14, but I assumed it was a coding glitch (eq randomization had added an increase on top of an existing benefit) and would have no more effect than wielding two +7 items (ie. the effect would just be +12) I think I already included the 2 from paragon levels (which I poorly abbreviated as PL) It sounds as though Demigodding can give a total of +4 to Wisdom, for a DC boost of +2 and Ego can give +1 DC to a form, so is the max DC 60? (62, if ability boost can be over 12) What is the typical save for mobs in the Abyss, Hell and other high level runs? What are typical legendary and paragon boss saves? Nah, MB. Completely missed the PL stats you mentioned, its often called as PL stats. But yes, I was referring to BUR/Set/XR gear indeed, +12 limit has been bypassed here. As for form selection: Dragon for highest elemental dmg per round and they tank stat checks fairly well, but their downsides are being super clunky and you can actually run out of shifterpower doing it, and your party will hate you. Not sure how small the new "fixed, size problems alleviated" -dragons are). Humanoid for good soloing prowess from kobold traps and what was mentioned earlier Outsider for nice elem coverage (Azer: fire, Slaad: acid, Modron: fire/pos, Rak: sonic, maybe c/bludg) that feels better to use than Dragon shapes, but they haven't really kept up with other classes in terms of scaling and Azer was fairly important to help shifters perform under water but this has since been fixed. Construct for Pos dmg in Aboleths, Poison breath in various areas, bludgeoning dmg, electrical dmg. Construct is a really safe bet to be useful. Undead: not familiar enough, but was never impressed with anyone using these shapes, but that could be player error or simply not knowing something that is really OP in there somewhere. Choose what you like best. Don't forget to use improved expertise to make yourself tanky and to enable better use of shorter ranged shifter forms and become meger tanky. Have you taken a look at the hgwiki? Go check LL/Hells/Abyss/Limbo wikis and bestiaries for more info as well on saves, misc imms and vulnerabilities and such. Has a rather comprehensive list of forms and their perks. Also, I would invite you to head over to Drunkenboastors guide, it has a whole bunch of good information and he is one of the players with most shiftering under his belt on the server. Edit: saves range from anything from 50 to ~~63, mostly in the 52-58 range, and in areas with layer penalties you may also experience DC drop. Paragon bosses get up to mid 60s, 65+-3 iirc. To find out exact ones, go test! There is an arena in town. Paragon monsters tweak these numbers as well, see Abyss/Hells bestiary for further information on saves.
|
|
|
Post by boroie on Jan 16, 2021 0:45:12 GMT
Dragon for highest elemental dmg per round and they tank stat checks fairly well, but their downsides are being super clunky and you can actually run out of shifterpower doing it, and your party will hate you. Not sure how small the new "fixed, size problems alleviated" -dragons are).Actually they are really small now compared to what they were, and super usable in party combat. They just went up an effective power ranking IMO because of that. Similar in size to the spawn of Uro dragons you see in 4th Uro map onwards. No more giant hitbox. Also their breath is not loot breaking which is very cool.
|
|
|
Post by jelricle on Jan 16, 2021 6:51:13 GMT
Dunno how big they used to be and I don't know if they change in size with LFF, but, yes, basic dragon forms are small (which is actually very good. My Beholder grew to such a large size with LFF that it can't get through the Beholder tunnels!) It is a lot of fun to be a a runty little dragon, slicing up Glithilhdoul, tooth against claw.
LFF form changes are interesting. I love the risen lord and the Vampire, when moving, but the vampire looks like kinda doofussy when standing still. :-D
Hmmm, so even with full DC, it is unlikely to beat saves of 52 to 58. The half damage of a seige mode stone golem is probably better than a knock down from wing buffet that keeps failing.
|
|
|
Post by tomaan on Jan 16, 2021 8:55:11 GMT
I've only seen it with melee builds - if you can cover the positive damage vulnerability PFF Risen Lord is a pretty effective tank.
|
|
|
Post by chainlink on Jan 16, 2021 9:29:27 GMT
Read this highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/24275/drunken-guide-shifting-druid-shifter (if you have not already), I have seen people make tanks using Risen Lord but taking Undead restricts your general functionality as a shifter, Vampire is a dead end (no pun intended) you can get the same GS effect from Etheral potions which are pretty easy to obtain, banshee has an awesome instant effect Wail of The Banshee death attack but you can achieve the same with Basilisk although at a lower DC and directional restrictions.
|
|