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Post by jazzadellic on May 22, 2021 5:06:20 GMT
With all the base class, prestige & quasiclasses available on HG, I'm just curious what you guys consider to be the most useful and least useful? There are so many that I haven't even tried out, but some seem to be for role-play purposes only and whatever it is they do well, there seems to be another class that does it better, and so what's the point? Maybe I'm wrong, please enlighten me!
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Post by xakila on May 22, 2021 8:16:31 GMT
If I was thinking usefulness I would say in order Sorc, bard, druid, cleric (the four cores that are the most useful for the most areas), melee tank, then others. If I was going to personally do a tier list from what I've seen, based on power/defenses, utility, amount of effort needed and or situational factors such as zone and group-size... I think it would be as below. Fighter and blackguard move up a rank with lots of great gear (richboi class), while paladin moves up two I suppose.
SS: sorcerer (best overall class for the most content imho, and multiples aren't usually wasted) S: Bard, druid, cleric, Melee Ranger, CoT, shifterlash (ranger/shifter using lizardman) A: AA, Zen ranger, Fighter, theurge with cleric epics, Warchanter (I put chanter at A tier cause if you don't have a bard it's much better to add a warchanter than most other classes, there are circumstances a chanter can be more useful than a regular bard, and they are probably a ton more fun to play than regular bard) B: monk, Assassin, XDD, caster Shifter, battlecleric C: paladin, PM, pariah, blackguard, SD, Lash, Herald, maybe staffmaster, stormlord D: barbarian, rogue, wizard (cause sorc's) WM (better to splash), Bane knight, BFM, slinger, DSM, lifethreader, DD, GI
In my mind this feels about right from what I've experienced/theory crafted, some things are lower cause of either the equipment needed to make them feasible or being outshone by similar classes. For example wizard is no weaker than druid, but with sorcs on the table there's little reason to play wiz past level 40. If it wasn't for sorcerers, I'd rate wizard as S tier for what they can do, while even with bard on the table I rate Chanter at A cause it's not a totally redundant role (some different abilities and ok melee capabilities... not just a weaker bard.) I personally would only play C or D tier classes for the fun factor unless I was making them for a specific role or had great equipment specifically for them
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Post by boroie on May 22, 2021 11:07:57 GMT
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Post by boroie on May 22, 2021 11:10:05 GMT
What people find useful and top ranked will be largely based on what they use. Hence I expect any responses to this thread to have a large amount of diversity with regards to certain classes.
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Post by woqued on May 22, 2021 13:02:00 GMT
What people find useful and top ranked will be largely based on what they use. This. But doing a couple searches on the forum woulda got you a bunch of threads at least skating around this question jazzadellic . Plenty of long threads, albeit at least partially out of date due to newer updates like 2h nerf, weapon buff dice changes etc.
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Post by woqued on May 22, 2021 16:11:14 GMT
To add a little bit: - Base class casters amazing - Melee stuff good - Stuff that supports grrreat be it concealment/infliction/save/sr dropping, and battlecasters / castertanks are in a very good state - Stuff that can't selfbuff weapons/character or aoe-clear with spells is dreadful to solo-level/progress.
You can make the "best class in the game" look useless in the right party and with the wrong build/gear, and you can make the "worst class in the game" top dmg/kill meters or save a party from otherwise certain destruction under the right circumstances. The relative power between classes is certainly the best it's ever been since I started in 2014, but not sure the game is at it's funniest state it's ever been.
If you need to ask for a power ranking or class tier list for any other reason other than boredom, it probably doesn't matter and you gotta get back into the game and play around to see what works for you and your playmates.
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Post by desocupado on May 22, 2021 19:50:26 GMT
Anyone remembers these classes? Staff masters (was there ever a DC version?) Heralds of the Storm Bane knights (with DC) Fist monks DC based dragon mages Life threaders Pariah Gnomish inventors Palemaster (even more so sorcerer cc) Arcane archers Shadowdancers Rogues Dwarf Defenders
Edit I forgot weapon masters.
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Post by simpetar on May 23, 2021 0:10:21 GMT
Staffies, heralds, BKs, pariahs, GIs, PMs, AAs, SDs, and various rogues are all legit end game builds, strong in capable hands, much like other builds. No idea what that remark was about.
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Post by witlak on May 23, 2021 9:51:13 GMT
The great question is what means useful? Killing stuff or keeping your partymembers alive? Buff your side or debuff the other side?
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Post by woqued on May 23, 2021 16:25:46 GMT
Anyone remembers these classes? Staff masters (was there ever a DC version?) Heralds of the Storm Bane knights (with DC) Fist monks DC based dragon mages Life threaders Pariah Gnomish inventors Palemaster (even more so sorcerer cc) Arcane archers Shadowdancers Rogues Dwarf Defenders Edit I forgot weapon masters. I admit I wouldn't consider bfm/dsm/fistmonk to be very good. Do I think some of the classes on that list could use a buff? Yep. Can they all be played and not feel like baggage? Yep. Do I think some of the issues could be fixed/alleviated with set items possibly slated in Mechanus? Also yep. As a sidenote, I'd imagine that for -HC- bad/good builds matter and change more since you can't adjust with reincarnations or upgrade subrace; plenty of classes have some sort of "this type of build until point X, until you're strong enough to do the build you actually want to do". This is particularly common among some Melee characters and caster tanks, casters tend to have it easier except Sorcs; some specialist sorcs for Limbo/Abo/Ely for instance would be pretty horrible to level up without the possibility to reincarnate, and would certainly be missing out on what makes them feel so strong in other areas of the game. Class tier lists also don't persist through all subrace tiers; certain types of characters or classes suddenly become a whole different beast when you have access to BUR/XR tier stats/feat amounts, or a very specific few races enable them to perform and trying the class without them makes them miserable. An example of this would be Warchanters and Lifethreaders; I find them particularly distasteful to even consider until you have the Bur subraces tailored for either them or one of the [any class] bur subraces, their stat/feat requirements are that steep and the jump from UR to BUR subraces is ~~+6 stats and feats on top (too large honestly, but I suppose that is what makes BURs feel so good).
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Post by starcore on May 24, 2021 0:19:09 GMT
Crossbow Rogue and staffy were #1 and #2 damage on Asmo boss fight last night.
I think its always going to be subjective based on your party composition and the content you're running.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2021 1:24:36 GMT
Deso hasn't played in years. My guess is he is trying to poke the bear. Suckers
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Post by desocupado on May 24, 2021 3:20:31 GMT
Deso hasn't played in years. My guess is he is trying to poke the bear. Suckers I did play most of those classes. I became a parent "3 days ago". I probably did like 4 runs over the last 3 years. But then neither limbo or abyss had much appeal to me. While UPDATE 2020-12-01 looks very good, I do think the baseline on how classes work is flawed due the nature/adherence to 3.5-ish rules (and engine limitations). I can only praise what was done on this engine but it does not fix some inherent gameplay limitations. For instance what weapon masters kit does as a whole should be something you could add to rogue, fighter or paladins. Sort of like the 4th edition did with paragon paths. I would love to be rogue that disarms (weapon master) and sumon demons (black guard) because the demons helps me sneak attack and the weapon master grants options to boss like enemies. But I can only do one of these things with a ”build” or either thing as control class. Meanwhile the hybrid would still be a simple character to play. Like less than 20 abilities. The system itself doesn't allow you to get to the fantasy. Essentially you play a cot, paladin or dwarf defender the same way. Instead of having the prestige classes adding new tools to the base class they bloat build options and overlap in functionality for the most part. Bottom line, the gameplay would feel richer if prestige classes felt like spell schools do to caster classes, you can do more different stuff, allowing you to excel in new situations (instead of a power boost). If a barbarian had mortal strike and shadow abilities, would it be unplayable? Not at all. I would rather compare the combination of barbarian with assassin + shadow dancer prestige classes (some sort of assassin prone to fury when things don't go it's way) with a barbarian with dragon disciple and dwarf defender (the epitome of toughness). Instead we discuss having or not some class features and wielding a one handed or two handed weapon. This is why I really like Harper and PDK. They stayed true to the prestige nature. But the system as a whole doesn't support it fluidly as there are carrots for pure tanks. The very notion of splashing class would allow this - if you take 5-10 levels of a class, let's say rogue, you could gain some rogue active abilities (not all, but something that adds variety to gameplay - looks at GI).
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Post by desocupado on May 24, 2021 3:45:46 GMT
Truth be told my favorite class is shifter due it having many options on how to approach each battle.
I really liked having a "pure" blackguard with smite-turning, persuade, summons and dual damage type morning stars. But then I turned it into a bg-fighter-wm with huge crits and few choices other than damage types and protective gear. I probably should have played a BK, but they never look right to build - too many things to opt to not have.
Sorcerers are always a joy to play due spontaneous casting. I heard bards could do that, but it never feels like the case due how spell DC works. I wonder if reverse gravity was overpowered without Karsus...
I think another fun one was my caster druid with dragon shape transmutation and illusion schools - a shame bonus spell slots were wiped when morphing. That paragon illusion spell was so fun - mass super disintegrate and those high damage breaths. I still like having a new druid with abjuration, conjuration, evocation and transmutation.
Life threaders do like 400/200 damage and heal. They are a bit squishy due needing max wisdom and to tank at the same time. In the end you have the damage output of half a nuker (as haste allow th to use two spell per turn) and a one handed Dexter build (melee is terrible). Hardly comparable to str tanks or casters that can also instant kill. At least it looks good on the logger.
I had a storm of flames bfm - the caster version with transformation. Actually it felt quite nice, I could knockdown with wing buffet and it high dc, also many hell all charges, a saves drop aura, good hit points and strength. There was even detonate and meteor shower spamming. It was fun, but a regular sorcerer outshined it with Karsus and instant killing.
Assassin is a class I enjoy, mortal strike actually got pretty good now, and they actually have good spells between wrack, true strike and the one that uses death immunity instead of critical immunity. Still the damage contribution is underwhelming and cleric's heart bane overshadowed it.
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Post by tomaan on May 24, 2021 16:38:39 GMT
I used to clown BK too... until I finally built one correctly. Now it's one my favorite tanks - ton of damage and high survivability with minimal gear requirements. Level 50 weapons with divine damage are EXTREMELY effective when targeting the right mobs. But then, again, that's also what happened with shifter lash. It took a LOT of tinkering to figure out the build....now it's a community standard. The point being: you can probably find a "useful" version of almost every class and quasi class on the server: even Dwarven Defender - it just takes a lot of time and effort to come up with something different....that's why most people gravitate towards proven builds. #shameless_plugs
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