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Post by desocupado on May 24, 2021 16:56:27 GMT
I used to clown BK too... until I finally built one correctly. Now it's one my favorite tanks - ton of damage and high survivability with minimal gear requirements. Level 50 weapons with divine damage are EXTREMELY effective when targeting the right mobs. I think Cara, youand me were the most prominent alternative builders around. My divine slinger with turn undead is probably very good, extra damage from divine might, due higher charisma, and a powerful crowd control, but I didn't make to 60...
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Post by jazzadellic on May 24, 2021 23:33:03 GMT
I'm reading all the replies with great interest. The reason I asked the question was not to start a war over which classes are crap and which ones aren't, or who has the "correct" or "incorrect" opinion. It was more the fact that I have a limited time to play the game, and if I could only level up a few of the classes to 80, I wanted to know which ones would be more useful / essential to high level runs so I would have higher chance of getting one of the coveted spaces on a team! I already knew what the core classes were (ABCD, tank), and have 1 or more of each in progress. But I didn't know at all how to gauge all the other classes, and how essential or non-essential they could be to a run (simply because I don't have enough experience with many high level runs). Barring player skill at teamplay, I think it's fair to say that there are objectively more useful and less useful class/build combos. We are all in agreement on this already since every run we try to get the cores covered. So there is no point in arguing this point, as I see it. I understand it's hard to quantify precisely the usefulness of any given build that is not a core, and there will be differing opinions. I also understand that if we take player teamplay & communication skills into account, this can end up being more important than what build they are playing, and because of this I will make this my top priority: to become better at team play and insuring the run is a success! And I also understand that this is a game first and foremost, and we are all here to play this game for relaxation and enjoyment and camaraderie with the awesome group of players on HG and so we can use any damn build we want to ;o) But with all that "obvious" stuff to the side, there are still viewpoints on this topic I think it is worth discussing. Because let's face it, if there is a Nessus run full of lifethreaders, weapon masters & GIs, you might have a harder time getting into that last available team slot with a divine slinger than with something else like say a sorcerer...But hey if you guys want to do a Nessus with 10 GIs, I'm down!
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Post by desocupado on May 25, 2021 3:58:01 GMT
Actually teams with multiple threaders are very powerful in theory because, well, damage stacks. You just need a bard (save drops and epics) and possibly a dragon disciple to reduce the enemy saving throws.
If you are not looking at direct damage, a dragon disciple or lash of hatred tend to be good picks, with an additional debuff. A shifter with humanoid and undead shapes can mimic both to some extend. You can never go wrong with an additional sorcerer.
If I'm not mistaken level 80 priorities are different from level 55-78 ones. And those are sure differently from level 1-55 ones. So this is something else to consider.
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Post by tomaan on May 25, 2021 5:39:59 GMT
I already knew what the core classes were (ABCD, tank), and have 1 or more of each in progress. But I didn't know at all how to gauge all the other classes, and how essential or non-essential they could be to a run (simply because I don't have enough experience with many high level runs). Then you're all set - the most useful build is the one that particular party needs, so having the flexibility to fill as many roles as possible will get you into as many runs as possible. You'll also answer your own question based on which builds level the fastest! Check out some of the active clans too - that's a good way to get end-game runs scheduled.
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Post by woqued on May 25, 2021 7:08:13 GMT
If you're set on ABCD, tank..
Lash, Ranger, Shifterlash: can't go wrong here. Lash best inflictor, ranger for frontline and tank parties and good source of POS dmg for Abo, shifterlash is the sturdier and easier to get xr weps for hitting inflictor. Lash using whip can be a cockblock to ever getting a XR wep, while Shifter can easily access the craps others don't want to use and get multiples even, while making the most of it.
Everything outside ABCD, top tier melee in [pala/bg/ftr/cot/bc/sl] + top tier support [lash/ranger/...wc?] is basically filler for most runs. Not useless, but not mandatory. Generally you want the epics/paragons and general utility/instakilling from Cores, tanks to form frontline and kill stuff that can't be instakilled, and fill with whatever.
RDD's fear aura is massively strong, really good for instakilling parties. RDD buffs in recent patches made them a real supportive contender as +1, but doesn't form a core of party or deal very good damage so it's really a support character to make an already succesful party feel better. Go play a Sorc with a good battlecleric, good druid, and a good rdd as your frontline. My my and I JIZZED IN MY PANTS. Melt 'em all! A sidenote is that RDD fear aura and Cleric/Battlecleric battletide also reduce enemy [AB] by anything from -4 to -6, which makes these types of supportive frontliners particularly strong. Basically it's equivalent of more than Girding for the battle of AC&AB of team vs monster, as long as they're in your aura and effected. Barb fear aura in comparison is far weaker, but still good - doesn't stack with RDD Fear, but does stack with Battletide.
Ranged characters are better than they used to due to buffs to them and nerfs to weapon buffs. They are all viable to play and can make certain runs feel a lot better as an addition after core is formed, but none of them form a "core of the party", though high level ones can probably be played as frontline as well. AA/Slinger/RangedRug are all viable options.
Assassins can excel in Hells and some layers of Abyss/pt1 limbo, same goes for Zen Rangers. Shadowdancers are the real assassin of HG, appearing from shadows to assassinate backline with 2h multiplier and can be fun to play but require a decent amount of investment to feel good but apparently some people really love playing them.
Avoid if short on time and not feeling experimental: DSM/BFM, Fistmonk, lifethreader (unless you know what you're doing), and bad builds on good classes lol. Literally everything else is at least somewhat versatile and completely capable of doing at least some specialist thing very well. Not sure I'd still make a Herald of Storms either, but they aren't useless by any stretch of the imagination and quite exciting in solo/lowman play, but just not very good in high end big party play. I'd also avoid dualwielders unless you like grinding/trading for weapons/subs, but dualwielding is viable endgame option and so are dualweapons for fighters/barbs/etc.
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Post by woqued on May 25, 2021 7:38:36 GMT
You could include WM/Monk as top tier melee, and every castertank in bc/sl/wc/staffy/bk are all "top tier" in their own ways, if built right. I didn't include monk/wm because you can splash a big portion of what they do into the other ones, but they're still strong. PDK / WC make the non-caster tanks a lot better with attack increasing utility to party, but PDK have a bug currently making them cumbersome with castertanks. On paper PDK's are a great addition to parties filled with high damage melees with no access to extra attacks like paladins and fighters. WC's are just great utility if they know how to press haste button on friendly attacking characters, even those with divine power source attacks (afaik? no bug here? Worked last time I tested..) Links to other posts with this conversation at least in some forms: highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/26244/higher-ground-class-tier-october^One example of why you got the "can of worms" -treatment to this post Patches that affect old subjective notions of tiering: BIG update: highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/26300/update-2020-12-01 -- completely revamped the tiering outside ABCD. Old SSS-Tier melees were nerfed to S-tier, attack stacking changed, underdogs buffed in various ways, etc. Overall this was probably a most change to the differences between 2h superiority and ranged characters; ranged characters are now viable competition for top damage dealers, especially in no-XR weapon situations. Melee now require XR weapons to compete in damage dealt, whereas ranged folk only require high level and pre-Limbo gear. highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/26118/update-2020-08-07 made castertanks a lot better, made non-casting melees worse, buffed assa/bg poisons, another change that made Lash of Hatred arguably far better than shifterlash for high end bossfights on a good lash highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/26338/update-2020-12-10 [crappers got less crappy] highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/26376/update-2020-12-28 [shifter size change to dragonform, now more usable] ... Bunch of other updates and changes ranging from minor to major. ... TLDR: 2020 was a big year for balance changes, and everything is still up in the air. I don't think the current patch is still figured out, although I don't really know because LOL I haven't been playing or testing stuff, only from what I've seen people play on webdash and heard others say (so biased input) and what I assumed would happen based on initial patch notes at the time. Also means I haven't seen or experienced various bugs that may or may not be present in various classes.
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Post by tritone on May 25, 2021 7:52:36 GMT
Thought I'd chime in with some recommendations for a tanks to start out with.
Cores are always useful. In terms of gear, you can contribute fully on hell/abyss runs even if it's your first time there. There is a good amount of player skill/knowledge involved but at least all of that is covered fairly well on forum guides.
The strongest tanks work by having gear that's good enough defensively that you can focus in the build as offensively as possible. This means that the balance changes a lot depending on the gear you have available.
What I'd recommend then is focusing on a tank that gets enough defensively from just levelling up that you can survive with minimal gear, while still being viable "bigboi" tanks later on. Ie there are better earlygame choices and better late-late game choices, but these are viable from 60 through 80.
Woqued posted while I was typing this, and 100% agree with that post (most classes can be completely fine if appropriately built, geared, and played), so I'll just throw a few concrete recommendations.
A Shifterlash can tank hell/abyss at level 60 with minimal gear. They don't get free mind immunities so some gearing is needed later, but they remain flexible and strong in the entire endgame.
A 2h monk can do decent damage while getting mind immunities for free. They are not tanky until 2x demi though, but once you get there it's one of the strongest tanks with minimal gear requirements, only falling off at the very top of the food chain.
A 2h CoT gets mind immunities like monks, and have the option of going 1h & shield to survive the first two hell cycles, while still ending up near the top of the food chain when maxed out.
An AA or Slinger have an advantage being ranged, so if the rest of your party is solid, you can get away with less gear while still having top tier damage potential. Another advantage is that melee tanks need expensive xr weapons to get good damage, where ranged dps just need levels and knowledge of what damage types the monsters take best.
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Post by woqued on May 25, 2021 7:54:04 GMT
An AA or Slinger have an advantage being ranged, so if the rest of your party is solid, you can get away with less gear while still having top tier damage potential. Melee tanks need expensive xr weapons to get good damage Hah, I was just editing this in while you were posting xD
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Post by tomaan on May 25, 2021 18:00:40 GMT
Last word from me on this: whether you choose a proven build or something more experimental, define the role you want the build to play and make sure it fills that role first and foremost. As woqued said: Once you've done that, everything else is gravy.
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