Are party with players diversified in levels/power fun?

[desocupado]

I'm not sure if they are fun...
On one side it's good to be around stronger or better experienced players to learn a new area, but the gameplay quickly downgrades. It's what often happens in LL areas and hells.
Anyone can think about workarounds or have anything to say on this theme?

[boroie]

I don't see any issue here, or rather I am unsure what problem you are trying to solve. There are a few factors at play.

1. HG already has a system for this - the sliding XP award based on how far you are from the highest level character.
2. Frequently if there is a party level discrepancy, it is due to either new players or new characters (on experienced players) to gain tags or simply because it is a high xp event for them. In this case the goal may not be to be an equal contributor.
3. I would argue that in Hells/Abyss, even a fresh level 55 core can contribute in a party of level 80s. Non-core classes may well struggle though.

[woqued]

Very subjective matter I'd say, heavily depending on your goals. Are you trying to enjoy the whole ride, or trying to get to the fun part ? Does the fun part end at some point, or do you need to reach a threshold after which everything becomes fun? Is everything before a certain point incredibly unfun?

For people with clear idea of the above, they would probably love to be carried through the unfun stuff to the fun stuff, even if by themselves on other characters. For me, RPG's and mmorpgs like this are dependant and even thrive on there being diversified levels of power. For equal playground we play PvP games or campaigns with heavily balanced playground and often low amounts of rng, or at least the rng is more limited, or a given playthrough is much shorter; on HG the parameters to rng in XR stuff and general randomized item rng are incredibly wide; ur belt with 90% added imm, plode imm and ego on it is better than anything you'll likely ever get. Maybe you roll 200 subs and don't get the one you wanted, tough shit.

HG has a lot of "power fantasy" elements that encourage power level variance; from subs that give you power even at level 1, randomized gear to extreme build variance - builds can be tailored for different content, etc. Then there's builds that only "pick off" or pay out later; early on they're dregs. Still varying power levels between characters; even if it was 5 levels higher, it would still suck if it didn't hit whatever power spike it needs to get going. You're essentially always chasing that next high for an even better character or build, or at least a different kind than the last one; that's the whole progression curve and the spine of HG when it comes to character development. We even have gigantic systems built around that in reincarnation and subraces.

So, in short: I'd say the whole game is derived from large diversified levels of power between characters regardless of their actual in-game character level, and if I were to be pulling the strings, I'd make it even easier to party with even higher power differences; I don't really like loot being limited behind character level, or 1-40 not being able to be powerleveled. Tags I approve (challenge), grindy stuff like loot/xp I don't (1-40, 40-60 stuff, portable hole, etc). Let's be happy that I'm not the one pulling the strings eh ^^

Now, onto the ted-talk:

SPOILER: Click to show

Tbh, I feel like the limitations on diversified levels could be alleviated further; I loved the oldschool nwn modules where experienced characters could speedrun you through if you're doing something you've done tens of times already. There's no novelty at that point; just let me speed past it if I want to. Same as D2 cowlevel farming, etc. You can still play it the original way if you so choose; I've done challenge characters, and I enjoyed those. I just don't want to be forced into them, if I've already done it a couple times. Then it becomes a chore, and there are new games I can do chores in where there is at least the learning, wonder and discovery aspects to it. You can also try to make it a challenge instead of a chore; try to do it even faster. Even better. Something to engage you over the grind; but in the end, HG is a very grindy game at it's core, and often has a lot to do with getting to the grind you most enjoy - and if you were able to powerlevel even before ever doing it "legit", then I'm sure some would feel like the expereince was cheapened somehow so I get it. Then again, 60-80 has so much tag baggage where you're forced into the hell pipe; pre-demi characters are puny trash for endgame content, the artifact + demistat jump is that large due to various reasons; be it stat checks, artifacts' individual power, dc / saves / ab, the whole shebang. But oh boy does it make it feel good to get those bonuses though, so the reward is there; but the diverse class system of HG is so wide that you'd like to experience and test with it, but the wall is humongous to get to high power levels on several characters unless you resort to multiboxing (and even then, let's be honest).

Then there's the social aspect where more experienced characters could come and watch you do stuff without completely deleting all drops and exp; you could "hang out", even if they're not doing everything for you. Or even if they are! They're increasing the social meeting points in the game between people if it's not as often "meh, you're lvl x. not good enough" or "meh, i don't have a char of that level. maybe we can play together in a month, if you catch up or if i level up a new guy in time". But then if people speed past appropriate content incredibly fast, they won't have anyone left to play with as level-appropriate for appropriate challenge of that tier.. But good players already level 1-40 even levelappropriate in a day, maybe two. 41-60 can be done similarly, even without help. With help it just gets faster (and less repetitive; LLs are notorious for xp gain differences between runs and pigeonholing you to run the specific high xp yield runs multiple times; in particular during xp weekends). Doing other runs is mostly for class specific loot until you get it or for a change of pace - many LL runs are quite fun to do, just not very rewarding. And others can be quite rewarding and rather unfun in several ways.

After all that, you -can- still play limiting yourself to level appropriate groups, if you find likeminded players to do so. You can say "please don't bring that or that character"; if it would diminish your groups' fun.

Things that have been done on this: level limitations (+-6 in 1-40); loot drop limitations (toon above x level present? Best sets won't drop); xp variance (lvl affects xp gained from kills); tag level limits, etc, etc.

[boroie]

Very nice post, especially the TED talk bit
There are plenty of structures there to bind characters of a certain level together, if they choose. I'm also in agreement that I would like to eliminate the level restrictions where possible. Maybe a tag per account that says you don't need to do this the hard way any more. Level 1-40s are very restrictive in who can join certain runs as the level gap gets in the way a lot.

Also, last point. There really are not enough players on HG to be introducing more restrictions. Maybe enabling new players to experience content faster rather than subjecting them to the pre-LL and then uro/desert/db grind would give a better result.

Also HC is a thing, if so inclined. 

[desocupado]

I'd say that any level point before the build is functional is bad (looks menacingly at Quasi-classes). At least reincarnation exists.

Power Discrepancy. At lower levels it's easier to gauge relative power with level, that's indeed not as easy at higher levels with more loot rarity, stronger tags and a grindy level difference.
I think the end game content needs to be reached sooner, so people have a more consistent power level. I do think that it was better to make PUGs with level cap of 60 even if artifacts and multiple demigodhood bonuses exist.

Think of this like this "Hells" is the new "Ssithrak-Desert-Penumbra".

I'm not proposing or advocating anything in particular - I'm just looking at a memory and saying -
"Was it fun to watch someone carry me on a run"
"Or see people in mass GS on PoM"?
"Or see caster with 9 more DC than you in hells"?
"Or a being a tank with 10 less stat points than another tank"?

[woqued]

May 28, 2021 19:03:55 GMT desocupado said:

"Was it fun to watch someone carry me on a run"
"Or see people in mass GS on PoM"?
"Or see caster with 9 more DC than you in hells"?
"Or a being a tank with 10 less stat points than another tank"?

To the first; maybe not, but I certainly enjoyed doing 10 db in 4 hours boosted, but still doing my best hitting stuff more than 2 dustbones in 4 hours hitting stuff with level appropriate companions, from the PoV of a Gnoll Barbarian - to get my weapons and levels. Doing Beholders once solo and once with Marcus de Rouen duo was fun, but would I want to *grind* that? Hell no, that was a onetime challenge! We didn't even get the loot we were after, and it took us HOURS! Gimme that lvl 80 wiz/sorc/pariah to speedrun that s**t when I gotta do it 12 times. You still gotta work for it, but at least work smart, and you gotta earn your right to get the characters/friends to be able to do that. There is value in that. 

To the second, no. It was never fun, but it was also never necessary: that was a weird habit some odd players got used to. I put it in the "weird cultural manifestation that is harmful", not inherent to the game design or even endorsed by the game, or even the most efficient way to go about the LL grind. I would compare that to people having designated bankers and having a miserable time doing that instead of playing their character, over group banking where everyone banks and everyone plays - which is fast and efficient, and not a problem at all. 

To the last two, well... the game is intended to have a very long life-cycle, and you simply didn't play enough to get to that point in the power curve of a given toons' life. The people who had that major of an edge over you probably enjoyed their road to get there and reaped the just rewards, and were likely still progressing doing those hells/abyss with you. I admit, it's not my cup of tea anymore to grind 7 hell cycles for a character - in fact, it never was; I only did it for a couple characters I most enjoyed, and I was rather miffed by the hell/abyss completion reward switchup, it harmed a couple of my toons significantly and I simply don't have it in me to do that many Hell cycles anymore.

In a way, these posts come across as "maybe this game isn't for you, was it really ever?" - and trying to manufacture the game into your preferences by streamlining and adding shortcuts to every point within the game. There is an appeal in the long road that many have enjoyed over the years. If we outgrow that then it is on us to move on, not for the game to change for us I'd say. Streamlining everything for a much faster progression could very well become boring and still end up being not your/our cup of tea. Or, enjoy the portions of the game before that rather long grind that is the hell/abyss tag train and beyond that the XR grind if you prefer that. 

The devs are working on the game sporadically in bursts, and focusing on "finishing" their vision towards the end and new areas, not polishing the old ones as much. There has been mention of the Elder Evils, Mechanus, etc for over a decade now, and I'm sure the devs and many players wish to see those zones come to fruition; and there will still be people willing to take them on, even if they take 3 days. That being said, there have been many changes to the way earlier content progresses - it is much easier to gear new characters in level appropriate zones without past characters than it used to, and there are more areas to explore. I invite you to check those areas out, and see if the game is actually still for you or if it's just a faded dream you sometimes like to reminisce but don't really enjoy anymore even if the progression changed. 

Remember, every plea and suggestion to change the core game is somehow misplaced. Maybe it just isn't for you, and the change it would take to make that change is away from something else - and what seems like it would require rather large, mod-wide overhauls of the progression curves. 

[woqued]

May 28, 2021 19:03:55 GMT desocupado said:

I'd say that any level point before the build is functional is bad (looks menacingly at Quasi-classes). At least reincarnation exists.

Power Discrepancy. At lower levels it's easier to gauge relative power with level, that's indeed not as easy at higher levels with more loot rarity, stronger tags and a grindy level difference.
I think the end game content needs to be reached sooner, so people have a more consistent power level. I do think that it was better to make PUGs with level cap of 60 even if artifacts and multiple demigodhood bonuses exist.

There was easier time getting PUGs with level cap of 60 partially because there were 

1. Vastly more players
2. less other areas to divide players in (no Limbo) 
3. less newer games as competition
4. no EE to split playerbase further

I'm not sure the level cap is the cause for pug run formation, but I guess we'll never know. Too many variables. But gotta say, when hitting 60 was cap, it certainly must have been much more feasible to make new toons - now people are on the train to 80 for a much longer period of time, and when making a new character the road to similar power levels as your old ones looks insane to approach. I have made several new XR guys and hit anything between 40-60, only to be demoralized by the 60-80 grind, so I'm with you - but honestly, I also played this game for many thousands of hours already. Maybe I don't need to play it even more, and that is a more pressing reason for playing less - not any faults within the game. 

[desocupado]

This is why I posted in the tavern instead of suggestions forum.

But if someone thinking about playing here comes and you tell them, to get to level 60 you need like 100h playing that single character. Everyone you see online is way past that. On that party on limbo, each character probably has 3 times as much time.
All this is because those people learned all the wiki and areas. If that wasn't the case it would take much longer.

Those challenge runs are pretty interesting, I also remember soloing Dachy as threader, the beholder as shifter. I think the most interesting hell run I ever had was a stygia where I was my damage theurge and someone else was multiboxing 2 classes a bard and something. There was some aboleth with Raj and someone else. I surely enjoyed abyss with the DTs. But I dread the memories of LL grind.