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Post by AW O'Reilly on Aug 17, 2021 16:08:14 GMT
Level cap for gear drop - fine. Level cap for tag is an unrecoverable error for any player that cannot shackle -AND- is totally unnecessary. What piece of set gear from beholders needs to be so jealously guarded from a lvl 60 -HC- Palemaster lest it fall into his boney little hands?... a ring. What?! Too many arbitrary hoops can get annoying - this one certainly is.
btw, if the cap is designed to keep farming down or to prevent drags for tags, there are dozens of other runs with similar "features". Cap the gear - Relax the tag - please.
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Post by teleben on Aug 17, 2021 18:43:23 GMT
Same goes for pyramid. HC toons that have gone past this cap before it was implemented now have no way to get the tag.
The system in place for Toyshop, Tragidore and Arcane Archive at least gives players a choice. If you want to be able to get certain cool loot items, you do the run under a level cap. If you just want the tag, do it at any level.
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Post by chirality on Aug 17, 2021 19:44:33 GMT
-HC- Mode: "Play at your own risk" Dividing this into the two separate issues mentioned, we have on the one hand the fact that the level cap for the tag bricks toons that can now never get the tag. On the other hand, we have the fact that the level cap for tag is (or feels) harsh, arbitrary, and unnecessarily-punitive. The first issue clearly falls under the domain of "-hc- toons are at risk of being bricked and it's just part of playing hc." When you play, knowing that there is no reinc possible (nor shackling), you basically sign the contract accepting that playing -hc- comes with these risks. Not to preach to the choir--especially tele, with probably more bricked toons than most players have demis--but this seems to plainly be another case of things that just plain break toons due to changing something on a fundamental level that can't be fixed under the constraints of hardcore mode. PL stat edit, subrace stat changes, big class modifications--all of these things have always bricked hc toons. Not being able to reinc was a factor before the toon was rolled so that potential for catastrophic failure was already considered before clicking through creation. To be fair, this change that could be negotiated by shackling alone and hasn't physically changed existing toons in such a way as to demand reinc, so I could see a bit of an argument for this change being slightly different from stat- or class feature-based edits that brick anything incapable of reincarnation. Even still, I don't think this is ultimately any different from anything else when it comes to things shafting hc toons. Nothing about -hc- toons spending their entire existence under threat of being ruined forever by a new update has changed. Sucks but -hc- is all about self-inflicted pain and building new toons when old ones die or get bricked, so meh. Name of the game... The second issue is something that probably needs to be addressed server-wide, not just for hc mode. It's one thing to force people to shackle to get gear, but forcing people to shackle to get an LL tag is a bit much. There's no parity across LL tags here, so there's a big question mark in the air as to why this is a thing for some tags but not others. As stated in the previous posts, the existing paradigm of letting players at least get the tag for a given run, but providing other limitations, still is the case for most of the mod and seems to work fine. It's hard to really find any aspect of "fun" within some LL tags shifting to become more like pre-LL tags in this way, regardless of the player's choice. Tagging lowbie accomplishments is a voluntary sign-up for doing tags at or before level cap, but simply playing the game shouldn't insist upon that (and again, has never before, and doesn't in nearly all other runs). That's the whole reason (I thought) that lowbie tags are by choice and offer a "special reward" when done "the intended way" (abiding by level cap). LL tags always existed simply to be gained to worn gear (at any point in a toon's career) or progress to the next stage in a toon's career, and were never capped by level (and again, most still aren't, so it's strange to find exceptions). Bluntly: I don't see any benefit of this change. Obviously the goal was to try encouraging "proper" at-level runs and hopefully stimulating some more vet-newbie interaction and some more engaging and inclusive LL partying, but I don't think blocking the tag itself if overlevelled accomplishes (or has to-date, accomplished) any more than simply blocking rewards (like loot, secrets) if overlevelled or making the run more difficult by scaling mob difficulty on run participant level. If anything, we could revisit ideas of LL "lowbie tags" where there's level-capped rewards for doing things "properly" and then a "normal tag for gear/progress" if past the level cap. To that point, I would argue that the dynamic of pre-LL tagging has already proven that despite being "voluntary", it translated into being viewed as virtually mandatory for 99% of players and toons, so this approach would seem like a win-win. Designing even the most marginal of benefits would still serve to motivate people to do things "at level" just to absolutely min-max the tiniest aspect of their characters. It could be something far less impactful than lowbie tag benefits (which ultimately are comparable to prince/asmo win gains) and still incentivize people to invest time and effort into accomplishing (I've made similar jokes many times, but hey you could even advertise something like 5% xp boost and have it never work and people would still chase it down just for the placebo and shinies). Finally, considering the new gear dropping only for those doing the run at intended level, one would think that the carrot exists, so adding a stick as well is a bit redundant or punitive.
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Post by AW O'Reilly on Aug 17, 2021 23:53:19 GMT
I do see this as two issues - the potential solution would solve both however. Just level restrict the gear drop. A great deal of effort goes into leveling a character to the point that these runs become "solo-able". Why restrict this? Its not like folks can't find a server to do a beholders run on. Int Arti - meh. IMO lvl 40 should be the end of the "omg i missed this tag or that tag" nonsense.
As far as -HC- is at your own risk - obviously. Lets reduce the silly though please. Please remove the LL tag level cap. So Annoying -and- unnecessary.
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Post by chainlink on Aug 18, 2021 9:36:52 GMT
If all LL runs had similar maximum level requirements to tag would this be a good or bad thing, discuss
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Post by boroie on Aug 18, 2021 11:34:20 GMT
Most LL runs have an existing tag requirement for set gear that drops on those runs, Rona gear being an obvious exception (and desert too I guess). Beholders/Pyramid gear was not tagged (the old gear, not the new stuff) before the introduction of the level requirement. It would be nice to know the motivation behind introducing level based tags on the two LL runs. There is much supposition about why this is the case, with the most common being it should enhance partying across the playerbase. It arguably does not though and could even be said to unduly impact that as vets have no interest in shackling to tag the runs without a material benefit. Shackling in general is just painful for non-spontaneous spellcasters (maybe fix !sb save/load ?). A lot of users do not even like to shackle tanks or non-spellcasters as they dont have/keep the level appropriate gear stored. The existing system (for the majority of tags) is opt-in without unduly punishing players for not doing it. Interesting bits of loot drop from most and you (mostly) need the tag to use them. That is fine. However if the motivation is just to make it 'harder' for people, that maybe its too easy now, that toons with XR gear stomping LL runs is a bad thing, then ultimately who does it benefit to make such a change? Who is ultimately being harmed by the current status quo? LLs are just a means to an end (hells -> abyss -> limbo -> mechanus -> ) for most players now. My preference would be to keep all LL tags without a level requirement. I agree with secrets and specific gear drops being level locked as then this will encourage a certain amount of shackling from completionists. Just my 2c.
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Post by chirality on Aug 18, 2021 11:36:53 GMT
I do see this as two issues - the potential solution would solve both however. Just level restrict the gear drop. A great deal of effort goes into leveling a character to the point that these runs become "solo-able". Why restrict this? Its not like folks can't find a server to do a beholders run on. Int Arti - meh. IMO lvl 40 should be the end of the "omg i missed this tag or that tag" nonsense. As far as -HC- is at your own risk - obviously. Lets reduce the silly though please. Please remove the LL tag level cap. So Annoying -and- unnecessary. Agreed. I just wanted to clearly break off the -hc- issue, because there's definitely a conversation worth having here in regards to the mechanic itself. In other words, if this was only something that was an issue because it screwed -hc- toons, I wouldn't expect anything to be done about it. Since it's a source for some disgruntlement even for normal mode, though, it merits a hard look. If all LL runs had similar maximum level requirements to tag would this be a good or bad thing, discuss I would like to know the answer to this question, first: why were some, but not all LL runs, already given this treatment?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2021 14:01:06 GMT
I agree with Boroie entirely. Level lock the loot that the tag enables you to use. Don’t level lock the tag. Awful idea. Most runs are one and done because the goal is the 55+ content. This is where your veteran players exist and play, this is where the enjoyment is found. Blocking the path to get there like this only hurts the exact people you’re trying to retain and keep playing.
You’re not doing anyone any favors for these adjustments to tags. Loot I completely agree with.
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Post by gladi8or on Aug 18, 2021 14:14:11 GMT
Post lvl 60 toons still run LLs regardless of tags and gear. Usually it's for items that are necessary or useful for abyss/hells/Limbo (sos, bios, lock picks, beakers, etc). Given the state of our low numbered player base, perhaps there shouldn't be any restrictions on gear or tags to entice more party playing? If a lower level toon player is looking for specific gear that drops from an LL run, they are unlikely to play with the higher level toons in the party if it automatically negates the dropping of specific items. I don't see much point in the restrictions because for most of the gear that drops in LLs the tags are required to use said items anyway. So to answer Chain, I think LLS having maximum level requirements is a bad thing. That said, consistency across all LLs seems to make sense if any changes were to be made. So, what is required for one should be consistent with the rest.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2021 16:53:00 GMT
I hate shackling for tags or loot. It's annoying and not fun to be forced to regear a toon and get zero xp from a run. Sure add some LL bonus to get people to shackle and enjoy the level appropriate experience (once) but after that slog please allow us to farm without having to regear every time.
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Post by chirality on Aug 18, 2021 22:04:31 GMT
That said, consistency across all LLs seems to make sense if any changes were to be made. So, what is required for one should be consistent with the rest. This. For me, it's not even about the aesthetic for everything to be perfect and symmetrical. It's just that there's nothing about any one (or two, or five) runs that makes them any different from the rest in regards to why this should make sense. I know HG has always had a point of pride about not enabling the kind of cheezy career-building that some servers had/have, where there's no level requirements or "tags" or there's uber shop loot available, which opens up the door for overpowered toons racing through early- and mid-game content without any sense of challenge. In these modules, newbie toons can be handed OP gear by vets (and/or by handed gold to buy OP gear from shopkeepers), and vets can just kit their own new toons out with OP stuff. There's some people that really find that dynamic distasteful; others don't mind it. HG has traditionally attempted to strike a balance of some sort by limiting both the equipping of OP gear as well as the acquisition of it in vaults, period; and the rate at which it is made available in some successive order (i.e. you can't just go straight into BUR zones without passing through some quest checkpoints first, for example). I mention this to point out the fact that what HG *doesn't* have is the complementary component to really enforce this "no drag" structure, which is precisely what is being discussed here: locking zones based on level. There's shackling which allows for level-capped carrots to still be collected for later munching, but there's a lack of a "hard no" when it comes to dragging and cheese. If the module was set up so that you couldn't even enter zones for which your character was overlevelled, it would be one thing. However, this isn't the case, and the game has been built, to great extent, upon the concept of "dragging" by various means and in different definitions of the term (i.e. "quickly doing grindy stuff that isn't fun;" "escorting new players to jumpstart their careers;" "making harder content more accessible;" "reducing time investment for vets that have repeated things too many times to enjoy it any more;" "farming more efficiently" to name a few). I don't see preventing tags if overlevelled as a meaningful solution to anything, since once a tag has been acquired, nothing limits dragging past the already-existing carrot for capped rewards. If there's truly an impact to be had, actually forcing at-level (or shackled) toons to complete runs without overlevelled help is where significant and substantial paradigm-shifting would occur. This would be extremely drastic to apply at this point, however, even if done incrementally, so this seems like a recipe for unhappy vets (at best) or disaster. If the hope is that locking tags by level would help accomplish something without completely cancelling dragging culture, my guess is that it would be a bit misguided and ineffective, considering a (non-cyclical hell/abyss) tag is once/toon, while grinding for loot is endless, and as long as the loot to be grinded for is acquirable by overlevelled parties, the timesink reduction obviously means that shackling or at-level paly will only be done when absolutely necessary, which isn't often when the transition to endgame is what matters the most at the end of the day.
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Post by moldyvoldy on Aug 18, 2021 22:53:05 GMT
I agree with having drops that will only spawn with a certain level, but I think the level locked tag is unnecessary. Having level locked gear creates a demand for people who spend more time in the LLs to be able to farm and trade valuable loot. Many endgame users would probably be more likely to pay for the LL loot instead of run it themselves (PH for example). I personally have a piece of loot from beholders I'd like to use, but lack the tag for it. I doubt I'll ever shackle my lvl 80 to go get the tag to use the item. I'd just rather not use the item.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2021 23:51:45 GMT
I also agree with Moldy. These choices will in effect have the players remaining cut large swaths of the module out of their playing then do it in this manner that’s being forced. We all have various reasons we continue to play a 20+ year old game. Forcing us into choices is not one of them.
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Post by AW O'Reilly on Aug 19, 2021 2:32:55 GMT
My HC palemaster identifies as lvl 54 - if that helps.
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Post by chirality on Aug 19, 2021 3:09:17 GMT
well I'm not gonna fall on my sword for HC palemasters missing tags but I have a bone to pick here
yeah, I mean I wouldn't be caught dead in beholders at L54
you'd basically die from boredom trying to play like this
imagine working the graveyard shift and coming home to play your HC palemaster and discover they can't tag beholders, oh well, maybe it's time to just give up the ghost
I mean palemaster is already a dying class but this really is a death knell for any HC toon that missed the tag
as far as tagging goes this is like the final nail in the coffin
you know, this change really just puts the run six feet under
heck, playing HC you're just dead in the water now
people were already dying to avoid beholders but this change just delivers the deathblow to the run
yup, make no bones about it, this is truly beyond the pale
doing beholders at L54 really drains your energy you know, and farming int artis is already a fate worse than death
really just wilts the fun in the most horrid way
poor o'reilly wailed like a banshee when he discovered he couldn't tag, and he doesn't have a bad bone in his body
these LL runs are dead as a doornail, but maybe some new update can snatch defeat from the jaws of death
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