Legendary Level Tags Poll

[chainlink]

Lets poll it, although for once I'm 100% certain of the way this will go

[woqued]

Post that gave birth to this poll:

OP: x is bad. Good reasons why. Nobody knows why change in the first place came to be.

All posts responding to OP: x is indeed bad, it gives most players nether region rash.

The point of the poll: ? To find those who don't want to type things to still chime in? Historically very few long time players enjoy 1-40 tagging system. LL runs are enjoyed and hated for their rewards: good rewards = happy players doing runs with rewards on their way to 60+ stuff. Bad rewards = nobody doing said runs. Making them even less enjoyable? Questionmark? Toyshop level cap system works great with a run with loot & tag for highbies and greater and better loot when done appropriately. Why break the wheel and assemble it as a square?

[Deleted]

Spot on Woqued.

[kratlin]

Think I am with nearly everyone on this one - level tag the loot not the run. The coding is presumably there as it is done in Toyshop with great success.

On a side note - a small bonus to skills and/or immunities for each LL tag plus something extra for doing all of them (just like the pre LL tag system) could do wonders for getting people to do the LL runs even if it was just the once.

[KnightErrant]

Aug 19, 2021 8:01:04 GMT kratlin said:

On a side note - a small bonus to skills and/or immunities for each LL tag plus something extra for doing all of them (just like the pre LL tag system) could do wonders for getting people to do the LL runs even if it was just the once.

This is actually coming at some point in the future, likely longer than three days tho ;-)

KE.

[chirality]

Is the idea behind limiting all LL tags to a maximum level that we use a stick for acquisition of tag, but still allow farming non-capped setloot by overlevelled groups?

If so, just to be clear, the picture painted is to force every toon to do each LL run at level cap--once--and then after that, dragging is ok, unless you are farming for capped items (operating as a carrot)?

Is this more about mandating people to experience playing runs as they were intended at least once (with a carrot to repeat the fun again), or is it more about enforcing intended level limits across runs in general?

In either case, are there plans to apply the scheme to Hells, Abyss, and Limbo as well? (Or do those fall under the "LL runs" category under discussion anyway?)

[chirality]

Is there going to be any further input from DMs/Team on this topic?

At first it seemed that there was some quick reaction from staff on this subject matter (like the creation of this poll instantly after the discussion arose).

I understand everyone is really busy, but at the same time, it's clear that things are being read and things are being attended to. So the lack of public commentary here by staff seems to indicate that private discussion has taken place, but not much effort made to share any thoughts or feelings about what seemed to become a bit of a hotbutton issue overnight.

It's a little deflating to feel like some of these changes were made without much public discussion or acknowledgement in the first place, and then kind of just have a poll that dead-ends with zero meaningful feedback or response. (I won't say zero effort or zero response, since KE mentioned something that does relate to the discussion, but there wasn't any direct commentary on the actual "issues" under discussion).

I appreciate that some development has turned more to closed-door decisions over the years, but it's odd that a poll like this arose after the fact, whereas traditionally we've had very public discussion of everything from new content to balance updates. I'm not sure why some of these tag-related changes were made in the first place or who decided the implementation of them, but to discover that public opinion is essentially 100% in opposition of these things, it's a little funny. (I understand that this poll is a hypothetical scenario, but I also haven't seen a single player post or chat in favor of the previous updates that implemented the start of these changes in the first place. To be fair, there may be a lot more support for these changes than I'm aware of from players that I don't talk with--I'm just giving my personal experience).

I didn't even vote yet, because I was waiting to read answers to my questions above. I guess it doesn't matter, with literally 0 votes for yes, but I would have voted yes as a future concept depending on how those questions were addressed.

Anyway, not to start the old griping about things being done behind closed doors and overdramatize anything, but it does seem like things have become a bit less transparent and focused on public feedback and more focused on what some people have decided is best for how other people play the game. That's always been the case, to some extent, obviously, but in the past there was usually no question about who made what decisions and why, or which team members had which opinions. Maybe I'm missing something important from some chat or another, but considering the forums have always been the clearinghouse for both decision-making process and feedback (again, here's this poll--a forums thread, not a discord discussion), the silence is a bit awkward.

I'd still love to hear some of my questions from the above post answered (as well as the Lolth "bug or intended" one). If the forums are no longer the proper place to make these posts, then I suppose the lack of response is the subtle hint to move elsewhere?

[chainlink]

I was not doing it on behalf of the team, I was just testing the water although I suspected what the temperature would be.

[KnightErrant]

Aug 27, 2021 13:25:11 GMT chirality said:

Is there going to be any further input from DMs/Team on this topic?

Anyway, not to start the old griping about things being done behind closed doors and overdramatize anything, but it does seem like things have become a bit less transparent and focused on public feedback and more focused on what some people have decided is best for how other people play the game. That's always been the case, to some extent, obviously, but in the past there was usually no question about who made what decisions and why, or which team members had which opinions. Maybe I'm missing something important from some chat or another, but considering the forums have always been the clearinghouse for both decision-making process and feedback (again, here's this poll--a forums thread, not a discord discussion), the silence is a bit awkward.

Since I have a half hour to kill before leaving for work...

I'm not a fan of the change, I actually think if you want to blast thru runs at way over level for just the tag (and certain loot not dropping) you should be able to...
Of course I also think that if the set level cap is exceeded it should spawn greater/superior/elite versions of the mobs so it's not too easy :-)

And....if it ever came to a vote on capping the level limit of certain items dropping in any part of the mod I would likely vote for it. (tho it would probably be a much better idea to add some stuff to every run that won't drop if the level cap is exceeded)

My .02 as requested :-)
KE.

[chirality]

Thanks for both responses.

I was curious if the poll was started from any particular standpoint (although I didn't infer that it was "official," you were correct to read the question buried in the walls).

I agree with those thoughts, KE. Having some mechanism for scalability (either entirely automatic or somehow toggle-able based on player choice) of mob difficulty, like the paragon system, was always one of my dreams. I've had quite a few discussions over the years with the idea of paragon mobs for LL runs with people (I think once or twice even had people even say "I had the exact same idea!," not just "yeah that's a cool idea") and it was usually regarded as a fun and cool thing to dream about.

That said, the conversation was immediately contained by admissions of "that's obviously quite a large amount of zots," so it was always more of a "if we had genie in a bottle with unlimited wishes..." type chat, not a realistic "let's see what Funky says about this" type thing. Anyway, I really love the idea of applying such a scheme to 1-40, and I'm pleasantly surprised to see that someone else actually thought that might be a cool idea (iirc the times I mentioned it in the past to people, it was met with much less enthusiasm and much more shrugging/"why bother" than the LL run version--although I really think it would actually have proportionally-stronger and even more positive impact than LL runs, since a) PoA content would hugely benefit from such scaling in terms of "fun/challenge" as well as "anti-cheezy/exploit-y thing" and b) PoA content is in much more need of "special HG lovin" in comparison to LL runs that have a lot of that functionality already built-in).

As for the item-dropping thought train, right on. I will say that it's probably more of a thing I would definitely support for some hypothetical "new vault/EE fresh start" scenario, and would be hesitant to champion as a "deploy this now and let the game adjust itself over time" type update package, because changes like the way progress through the game is handled or the way career item acquisition is handled tend to be unpopular and scary when they radically adjust the status quo. Admittedly, sometimes that's the only way to do stuff like that, and it might be odd to hear the guy whining about not being able to drag a toon through Lolth also saying that he'd be in favor of similar structural changes across the board, but I would emphasize that having a somewhat arbitrary-feeling, piecemeal set of changes gives a different feel from a massive "overhaul the whole system, every run, every tag" approach.

I know that at the same time, it's arguably less objectionable to do incremental changes along these lines (where it feels like the blow is softened a bit and the impact is spread out over time to encourage more comfort and adjustment be players), but without some kind of "these runs and these tags got this treatment because <we added new capped gear anyway> / <testing the concept to see how it goes> / <this is all there was time/zots/motivation for so it went in>" disclosure or discussion, I think I (and maybe others, such as the thread about the Pyr/Zorg tagging) was left feeling kind of like "eh? why this, why now, why only for these?" which is where some of the frustration came from. Part of that is definitely a result of the self-interested daul nature of players immediately feeling "robbed" and griping about changes that are "negative" while eagerly enjoying the fruits of changes that are positive--for example, there probably wouldn't be much outrage if there was more leniency added for the level caps of certain tags/setloot of only some runs, but not all.

Nonetheless, the issue of -HC- toons getting a raw deal aside, stuff like this does end up feeling like a bitter pill after "growing up" doing things a certain way and having the impression that changes making things "harder" or "more strict" just make things less fun or more time-consuming/more of a hassle, even if we can see that the motivation behind it is obviously meant to help, rather than hinder, people's enjoyment. Unfortunately, to continue on the "anti-exploit" style mechanism under discussion in regards to the pre-LL and LL tags, I have to say that in my observation, there's been practically zero actual impact in provoking people to play more "as-intended," and more of just forcing people to cheese the rules a little harder and find new loopholes and ways around the new restrictions. For LL runs, it's more like forcing people just to shackle or invest in new toons built specifically to farm, but for pre-LLs, it's both that (making more "at-level" helper toons--more prevalent than ever with bot armies being 99.9% de facto for everyone and for any tag-related purpose nowadays) as well as just figuring out how to abuse the new rules by still using overlevelled toons to help grind xp or complete tags (using immos to buff, park, pull, oh-shit-button rescue, spawn overpowered pets, etc) and just doing it in a way that doesn't trigger the anti-exploit (aka, ensuring the overlevelled toon is out of party, doesn't enter too deep into the "run," doesn't commit hostile act that flag mobs as having been affected offensively [like just standing there flatfooted out of party versus accidentally doing some damage with a staff out of party]).

If it came down to a similar poll like this thread, but "official" and in the context of Funky basically saying "we are considering applying this treatment mod-wide, 1-40, LLs, BUR zones included" I would have to consider a vote carefully, because I really do think this kind of change is for the better, but that feeling is harshly tempered by the fact that changing things in such a dramatic way at this point in the game's lifecycle and at this point in salty old vets' careers is very risky (and the road from the early 2000s is littered with the tombstones of players who got upset and quit to never return, at worst, or took long break and came back but never got back into the game more than passing interest, at best, due to intense feelings about changes that seemed to reduce their enjoyment for the purpose of improving the long-term health of the server).

I'd like to see some things done to "tighten up" the cheese-factor of 1-40 and LL runs, but sometimes it feels overly "big brother"-ish or "mother knows best" when things happen that leave you feeling like the energy was spent creating new regulatory structure (sorry for the Rockcutter soundbite) which leaves players basically trapped in more "red tape" and looking for new loopholes to get around new code. That's probably where a lot of the negative emotion about these thread subjects comes from, ultimately.

[chainlink]

Aug 27, 2021 20:23:37 GMT KnightErrant said:

Aug 27, 2021 13:25:11 GMT chirality said:

Is there going to be any further input from DMs/Team on this topic?

Anyway, not to start the old griping about things being done behind closed doors and overdramatize anything, but it does seem like things have become a bit less transparent and focused on public feedback and more focused on what some people have decided is best for how other people play the game. That's always been the case, to some extent, obviously, but in the past there was usually no question about who made what decisions and why, or which team members had which opinions. Maybe I'm missing something important from some chat or another, but considering the forums have always been the clearinghouse for both decision-making process and feedback (again, here's this poll--a forums thread, not a discord discussion), the silence is a bit awkward.

Since I have a half hour to kill before leaving for work...

I'm not a fan of the change, I actually think if you want to blast thru runs at way over level for just the tag (and certain loot not dropping) you should be able to...
Of course I also think that if the set level cap is exceeded it should spawn greater/superior/elite versions of the mobs so it's not too easy :-)

And....if it ever came to a vote on capping the level limit of certain items dropping in any part of the mod I would likely vote for it. (tho it would probably be a much better idea to add some stuff to every run that won't drop if the level cap is exceeded)

My .02 as requested :-)
KE.

As we already experience paragon Elysium/PoM mobs in Oinos that's not a bad idea at all.........Elite Solar thats gonna be nasty!