Ranger Bow

[chirality]

The lack of flexibility and precision of damage types in comparison to AA bows is more what I said. It's the array of choices that are worse, not simply AA bows being "better"--ranger bows shouldn't be as "good" because they definitely shouldn't deal comparable damage. The options that a ranger has should be as good when it comes to picking suitable damage types, and the damage should obviously be much better. Again, not approaching AA or slinger tier, but it shouldn't be so low that it makes zen defined as a class for whom the only function they serve is to attempt a CS every 6 seconds because their damage is too insignificant to matter. It's true that zen has had that definition forever and people still play them (largely because Rona exists and because they can serve as a ranger that also does rug stuff), but I have never met a single zen player that didn't have the same negative feedback on the boring/repetitive/one-trick-pony nature of the class. It's not the biggest problem of the century, or anything, but improving their bows would at least help.

I'm not sure where the "problem" lies in using an exo bow for mag or neg healers. I don't know about the "pita" or "root around" part, either--it's not like changing bow type is some kind of logistical hassle like literally searching through your inventory to click something. I mean playing an AA is a pita as far as that goes, but if we're going to talk about how annoying it is to constantly spam commands, a zen hammering CS isn't exactly better off there either...

I don't think that being "forced" to use an exotic damage type instead of an elemental type is a meaningful penalty or handicap, or something that makes zens have an advantage or QoL boost over AAs because they don't have to deal with it. They don't have the option to choose from the full complement of AA damage types in the first place, which is what I was getting at. I'm not necessarily saying that zens should have the identical arsenal of damage types, but they should at least have either a) full set of 5 ele types without worrying about a glaring flaw like neg/fire; b) have multiple options for ele types that are combined with a poorly-matched exo type.

The list of scenarios/mobs that present an obstacle for an AA that can't use an ele bow without healing and can't do anything with pos or div is not very long, but on the other hand, the list of mobs that heal off neg or mag and are vulnerable to pos or div is very long.

That said, I do agree that AAs would be best served with the mag+neg on the ele bows removed. This was discussed not very long ago, iirc. I think the ideal solution would be to basically reduce whatever required exo type is there (and delete the 2nd) to 1 point, which was how lash neg healing was handled and works very well. At any rate, the information about the neg/mag types on the ele bows is more like useful tips for AA guide, so it's really good to mention and keep in mind, but it's not really a problem or a thing that makes zens look better in comparison.

[dopplegang]

Just change the ranger secret bow to a short bow, better than delete since you get to keep the option open to use it rather than just leaving it on the floor like everyone has done in the past 10 years. Problem solved. The problem of ranger MVP bow being far outside of the access level it needs to be, and the CS discussion, and the AA discussion are a bit off topic.

[chirality]

That's fair. I'm definitely guilty of big derailing there. However, the thread seemed to be basically done with the specific "OP subject" so I figured there'd be no harm in delving off into a larger discussion (not expecting much benefit past academic theorycrafting either, of course).

I'll re-iterate that changing the base item to shortbow would technically be an improvement.

Archer's Bow has some use for a small window since you need to get DB tag->bows to merge the leg bow with them anyway, and DB is usually done very soon after immo, but usually not at L40 or immediately afterwards. In contrast, doing the "L40 uro drag" (which is such a normalized trend that it's almost safe to assume that half or more L40s have it either before doing Lolth/Immo or after getting immo while still L40) nets a zen the tag for three usable LL-tier bows so quickly that the "niche" for the Ranger's Bow is pretty much non-existent, especially when there's no incentive to even play a zen in the first place at L35-40, when reincarnation is free anyway.

I doubt most people ever even saw the Ranger's Bow ingame, let alone used it.

I just think reducing bloat of garbage items in 1-40 and LLs should be more of a priority, either by buffing outdated gear, removing it and replacing/combining it, or otherwise doing something about how much useless crap there is throughout PoA mod and many LL runs which serves no purpose.

It's true that there's the "Archer's Bow" as well as the "Legendary Archer Bow," just like the ranger equivalents (which btw has historically been a source of confusion for newbies or even non-newbs who aren't AA vets--not a huge deal but worth mentioning).

Yet grabbing the Legendary Archer Bow from its secret location is far easier (and not linked to what is a rather difficult, obnoxious, and frankly un-fun boss fight, especially without relying on OP cheeze, which is something that HG dev trend has fought against lately) than grabbing the Legendary Ranger Bow.

In fact, acquiring the Legendary Archer Bow is so easy that it can be naturally done before grabbing the more-powerful (DB) bows that merge with it, but in the meantime, the Archer's Bow has some value. On the other hand, grabbing the Legendary Ranger Bow requires completing an Rona, which is far more difficult than Uro and is usually *not* done before Uro.

It just seems like Rona was chosen because "rona is the zen run" or something along those lines (which is cute, but actually quite sad, and speaks to the poor state of the class and the lame nature of Rona as a run--really the only run in the game that heavily-rewards a class that sucks everywhere else, and is so aggravating *without* that class that bringing that class is the hallmark of the run), instead of following the same progression as AA bows.

Anyway, I guess it doesn't matter much at the end of the day. Changing it to a shortbow is about as low-priority as anything else, so at this point the whole discussion seems more like a goofy exercise in HG academia.

[dopplegang]

fair enough, the convo seemed mostly complete on the OP, on a side note, Mortal Strike would make assassins so very much more worthwhile if you had it by character level 35 instead of 38

[chirality]

I was thinking more like 25.

Even quasis achieve status and viability before an assassin can do literally the only unique thing that it exists to do--and it's worse at everything else than comparable classes (rogue duty, high-ac dex tankability, damage dealing).

It makes playing an assassin in PoA/levelling from scratch an exercise in stupidity. You can reinc for free before you can MS. It's a total joke.