Dashers, Dancers and Prancers - aka the Dexer thread

[Methes]

Cleric 40 Slinger gets 6 epics feats with limited choices. I usually go for GWis III (so WIS 16->19), GSF, ESF and Armor Skin. Still I find dex slingers better for mainly stat checks and saves. AC is fairly high for both, wis brings nothing as bullet DC is level based instead of WIS based (potential for change?).

[chainlink]

Oct 8, 2021 10:06:24 GMT Methes said:

Cleric 40 Slinger gets 6 epics feats with limited choices. I usually go for GWis III (so WIS 16->19), GSF, ESF and Armor Skin. Still I find dex slingers better for mainly stat checks and saves. AC is fairly high for both, wis brings nothing as bullet DC is level based instead of WIS based (potential for change?).

Yes that's a really good point, bullet DC increase similar to Zen Ranger CS DC increase (Wis modifier / 6) would be cool.

[Deleted]

The versatility of DEX or WIS is far superior to tying slingers to WIS. DEX is definitely the way to go for slingers these days.

[tomaan]

Thanks Methes @prepared and chainlink -- Updated the "proven builds" list based on your points.

I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to slingers....maybe it's time to give them a closer look!

[tomaan]

Ran the Brigand concept through the test chamber:

Elf, Undying
Rgr 23 - BG 14 - Rog 3

Ability	Docks	Lvl 60	Max
STR	14	28	36
DEX	20	46	70
CON	12	16	38
INT	18	32	40
WIS	14	28	36
CHA	10	24	32

AB: 98 (lvl60); 112 (Max)
AC: 136 (lvl60); 142 (Max)

Artifact: Dexterity

Fort: 74
Refl: 79
Will: 76

Feats:
Pre-Epic: Blooded, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Cleave, Greater Weapon Focus
Epic: Improved Critical, Epic Weapon Focus, Bane of Enemies, Great Dex +4
Legendary: Legendary Skill Affinity: Tumble, Legendary Weapon Focus, Legendary Disarm, Epic Skill Focus: Discipline, Epic Skill Focus: Search, Great Dex +2
Paragon: Paragon Weapon Focus, Paragon Disarm, Paragon of Stability, Legendary Will, Environmental Adaptivity +2
Ranger: Favored Enemy x6
Blackguard: Epic Prowess


Max skills (@lvl60+50):
Concentration (84)
Discipline (127)
Listen (124)
Parry (127)
Hide (122)
Open Locks (127)
Search (127)
Pickpockets (127)
Use Magic Device (77)
Craft Weapon (paragon levels)

Notes
- assumes leveling from 1
- paragon skill points not included

[dopplegang]

no disarm traps skill?

[tomaan]

Oct 8, 2021 22:28:18 GMT dopplegang said:

no disarm traps skill?

Didn't get that deep into the build....just seeing what would fit and was looking at dex-based skills

But yeah, I'm pretty sure you could max both open locks/disarm traps, altough you might need ESF in one or both to do it by lvl 60.

For the "Brigand" theme, though, I think I'd go pickpocket/set traps

[tomaan]

Hashed out the Brigand concept to build-ready:

Elf, Undying
Rgr 23 - BG 14 - Rog 3

Ability	Docks	Lvl 60	Max
STR	14	28	36
DEX	20	46	70
CON	12	16	38
INT	18	32	40
WIS	14	28	36
CHA	10	24	32

AB: 98 (lvl60); 112 (Max)
AC: 137 (lvl60); 142 (Max)

Artifact: Dexterity

Saves @60(max)
Fort: 69(77)
Refl: 76(84)
Will: 60(75)

Feats:
Pre-Epic: Blooded, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Cleave, Greater Weapon Focus
Epic: Improved Critical, Epic Weapon Focus, Bane of Enemies, Great Dex +4
Legendary: Legendary Skill Affinity: Tumble, Legendary Weapon Focus, Legendary Disarm, Epic Skill Focus: Disable Trap, Epic Skill Focus: Search, Great Dex x2
Paragon: Paragon Weapon Focus, Paragon Disarm, Paragon of Stability, Legendary Will, Environmental Adaptivity x2
Ranger: Favored Enemy x6
Blackguard: Epic Prowess


Skills@60(max)
Concentration: 25(88)
Discipline: 63(126)
Disable Traps: 57(127)
Listen: 63(127)
Parry: 49(127)
Hide: 50(127)
Open Locks: 51(127)
Search: 57(127)
Set Traps: 5(84)
Use Magic Device: 20(81)
Craft Armor: 0(89)
Craft Weapon: 0(89)


Notes
- Undying gets no xp penalty and +3 skill points for each LL
- damage infliction maxes at 26% elemental, 13% physical against 6 FEs, 15% elemental, 7.5% physical against all others
- skill points are thin until level 55ish...best to reincarnate after, but you will have max search, open locks, and disable traps by level 60 (will probably need GR for layer penalties)
- use paragon skill points to train Craft Armor/Weapon (final AB/AC assumes ~80pts in each)
- may need gear with skill focus/epic skill focus Discipline until demi x1
- shift points off wisdom and into cha if reincarnating at demix2 - your intel will be high enough to drop an ESF feat and take Div Might instead

[tomaan]

Whirlwind Attack
- Legendary Fighters with Whirlwind or Improved Whirlwind feats receive an enhanced version of the ability. When using either one, the Fighter will perform a second set of attacks, separate from the whirl. Every enemy hit by this round of attacks will suffer 10% vulnerability to all physical damage for 2 rounds. This increases to 15% vulnerability if the fighter has the Improved Power Attack feat.

- Greater Disarm (requires Improved Disarm feat): The targeted creature must succeed on a discipline check against ((2 * (Fighter level including LL)) - 5) or suffer a penalty of -1 AB per 6 Fighter levels including LL for 10 rounds. May be used 5 times per day.
- Greater Knockdown (requires Improved Knockdown feat): All enemies in a medium radius around the fighter must succeed in a discipline check against (2 * Fighter level including LL) or be knocked down for 3 rounds. May be used 3 times per day.

Any experience/feedback with any of these features? Particularly Whirlwind Attack?

I've tried Greater Disarm with as much as 58 fighter levels (discipline check 111) but haven't gone back to logs to see if it worked.
Greater Knockdown at the same level (DC 116) seemed to have no effect, but that could have been due to mobs' resistances

Thanks in advance!

[simpetar]

TLDR: no, no, no, but there is a twist

long version:

Whirlwind:
1. Very expensive and best be avoided, unless you are taking WM levels.
2. Puts you at risk of bugging your character, if you are not careful (you get stuck unable to attack, until you relog).
3. WW takes one whole round to use, that is one round during which you are not making your regular attacks. The debuff lasts only 2 rounds and inflicts only physical vulnerability. Assuming you want to keep the debuff up, you need to spin every 3 rounds and the infliction would have to be little less than 50% to make up for the loss of physical portion of your damage alone. You probably aren't the only tank / physical damage dealer in the party. You will not see physical damage increase until you have at least 4 tanks (including yourself) in the group, if you keep up 15% vulnerability.
4. This debuff simply cannot keep up with other similar effects, due to its small effect, required upkeep, and short duration. There are far more elegant ways to inflict physical vulnerability: lash, shifterlash, creeping doom, enervation and more. All of these last indefinitely, can inflict greater amounts at one time and require minimum attention (lashing is automatic, creeps are cast and then forgotten while they are ticking, only enervation needs to be hard cast, but well worth it). Not to mention that there is a cap for inflictions for monsters, unlike PCs.

Greater Disarm / KD
1. Both of these features hit a major brick wall: enemy discipline usually STARTS where your DC caps. That is hardly desirable for any ability, but even less so for one you have limited uses of. Also consider that enemies have +8 skills per every paragon iteration and skill checks don't fail on natural 1; against the really scary monsters you might want to use these abilities, you have virtually no chance of success.
2. There is a silver lining here. Regular KD / Disarm feats scale much better with your progress. If you are going that route, consider Greater versions as outdated perks, but at least they don't cost you anything.

Greater Parry
1. is awesome! But you probably know that already