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Post by chainlink on Oct 20, 2021 16:02:58 GMT
Please make them ID'ed on creation and stop me having to do stuff like this, its giving me RSI identifying them. Also can't they all auto stack like the Arcane Research ones do? Attachments:
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2021 17:25:57 GMT
Some epic cheese if this change isn’t implemented is that you queue up all the IDs, then have someone leave party and it will rapid fire ID them all.
100% agree that they should be ID’d on drop. It’s obnoxious and unnecessary.
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Post by chirality on Oct 20, 2021 17:50:20 GMT
So is IDing anything, honestly, but it is kind of traditional and built-in for NWN. It's such a "part" of HG that they even invented the mass identifier for items rather than just making everything drop ID'd, and that's for items that are just ID'd or not ID'd, unlike gems which have this entire infrastructure of being transmuted from one base item to another. That being the case, I wouldn't expect gems to suddenly change functionality in this way. I wonder if the easiest solution would be something like handing the Alchemist a box full of unappraised gems to "!forge" and they get replaced instantly with the identified ones. (In terms of trying to twist existing scripts to the desired purpose). That still leaves the annoying issue of wasting time clicking hundreds of gems back and forth between containers and bankchests, which is more work than actually IDing them (because you can just queue it up, even without that awesome cheese prep mentioned).
Having them "drop" as identified would mean redoing the system entirely, maybe even close to "from the ground up." That seems unrealistic even in the best of times, let alone now. How would that be implemented? Delete the entire appraisal system and unappraised gems and just have a similar table roll pop the real gems in the loot? Or have them initially appear as normal (unappraised gem item) and then automatically identified with some mechanism that replicates the behavior of a PC making a lore check? The former seems unlikely because ditching the pre-existing framework would be basically like inventing new work to replace old work that was already spent. The latter seems unlikely because it's just adding another layer of work (and some real-time overhead--maybe not lag but definitely extra stuff happening) on top. The fact that it's not just one "item" that's either identified or not means that there's a whole layer of complexity to be solved, which is probably not going to happen.
I would really like to see a way for them to be "stacked," perhaps in a similar fashion to how other consumables or canos that can't be "stacked" are able to be combined. Then, maybe it would be possible to basically initialize an automatic ID procedure for an entire "stack" that tracks the number of unappraised gems and IDs one "new" gem at a time and reduces the combined item size by one as if it was split off. Of course that's still inventing new work to solve a problem that already has an entire system built around the idea of appraising gems one at a time, so meh.
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Post by yune on Oct 20, 2021 20:41:27 GMT
Make the attempt to appraise the gem script fire in OnItemAcquired, so if you have the lore, you identify the gems as you pick them up.
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Post by chirality on Oct 21, 2021 0:45:06 GMT
That would be cool, but two potential issues I see there are: a) "I'm not looting any gems--that's the job of the guy with lore " b) Gems appearing in random spots on 1st page in the middle of the run unless you carry around a stack of each gem type (my bard carries around stacks of weap gems out of laziness already, but then with the traps and spell gems too, that would be very obnoxious, not to mention really double down on making it someone's dedicated job to bank them, which is lame because unappraised gem poop is a great advertisement for the dumb fighter to help loot midrun). I think the system being intended to kind of work like a "real" skill check and force you to "do it the hard way with a toon that can do it" means that making them work in a way like items (where you could click on a pedestal for instance and have them all ID'd automatically) is unlikely. So any QoL improvement is probably at best going to be logistical (making them easier to transport and/or ID en masse). Combining and bulking them in some way would be really nice, or being able to automatically run the check sequentially on everything in a given container (that approach is where I was thinking of the !forge type mechanic). It's the hassle of clicking the tiny things and moving them around that is the most obnoxious part, for me. Having them ID on acquisition would kind of automate the process a little bit but that still leaves the problem of dealing with them any time they aren't successfully ID'd and merged into an existing stack when they were first picked up, and that's the part that makes dealing with them such a huge hassle imo. I'd like to see a way to just !combine them into one item that can be split down like canos when needed, first of all. That would be part one and a huge improvement, then part two for eager zots could be put the single item in a box and targeted by !forge at Alchemist/Ixion (or !appraise, maybe just a command that works anywhere). Or even if you could just use the existing appraise power by clicking on one 250-stack gem and have the ID'd ones pop off as they do now would still be better than dealing with playing whack-a-mole with dozens of 1x1 items from inventory to bags to split to chests and so forth.
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Post by jelricle on Nov 13, 2021 2:48:06 GMT
I don't mind that I have to go through steps to Id them -- There is a joy in unwrapping a present, after all -- but there should be a way to get them id'ed more easily just like you can pay 100 gp or use the auto id'er.
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Post by chirality on Nov 13, 2021 3:40:42 GMT
Well, going through steps unlike a normal item isn't a big deal taken singularly. Keep in mind though that the thread is from the perspective of dealing with them by the dozen and then having literally hundreds and hundreds of them build up over time, because IDing them one by one is an actual chore.
The present metaphor is true and fair; it is fun and cool to have it be a little present. Of course, unwrapping them to find trap gems isn't much of a joy...
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Post by woqued on Nov 13, 2021 14:01:03 GMT
Unwrapping a present is nice when you know it has something interesting inside, you just don't know what kind of interesting.
This is more like opening a candy wrapper, where
- 2/10 of the time it's an earwax candy - 1/10 of the time it's okay, not what you wanted but maybe someone likes it or maybe you'll eventually need it for something - 7/10 you're happy with the result, but to fill your candy craving you need to get 60 times the 7/10 result, which you need to fight over with others in the party.
So, while it is a present opening moment, it's not exactly one that smells like love. Feels more like being the elf at the factory doing the packaging, and Santa pays you when he's in the mood for it.
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Post by chirality on Nov 16, 2021 4:56:39 GMT
Feels more like being the elf at the factory doing the packaging, and Santa pays you when he's in the mood for it. Yup, kind of like farming for random set loot
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2021 6:22:52 GMT
Comparing set loot to gems is way different I think.
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Post by chainlink on Nov 16, 2021 11:01:03 GMT
tbh I wouldn't be upset paying 100gp per gem for the mass ID'er to work on them, for people without a high level character with enough lore to ID them (they do exist) its even more of a pain
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Post by chirality on Nov 16, 2021 19:55:48 GMT
Comparing set loot to gems is way different I think. Yeah I just meant as far as the feeling of being an elf in the workshop toiling away and you get paid when Santa feels like it, and there's no scent of love in the air to speak of. Maybe I was just overeager to use the cool metaphor in some way so I invented an application that didn't actually make sense. Not to compare gems and set loot, more like just the feeling of unwrapping all these packages to face math like woki described, which is depressing.
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Post by jelricle on Nov 17, 2021 15:28:07 GMT
What is the highest lore difficulty of gems? I’ve seen 90.
I was hoping they would someday give mind flayer form a base intelligence (say, 28 to start, then increments of 3 or 4 per form focus) to get my Lore up to that.
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Post by Paradoom on Nov 17, 2021 20:48:08 GMT
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Post by chirality on Nov 18, 2021 0:17:49 GMT
I was hoping they would someday give mind flayer form a base intelligence (say, 28 to start, then increments of 3 or 4 per form focus) to get my Lore up to that. I notice you've had a couple ideas about giving shifters some extra stuff: I'm just throwing these out as possibilities, if you do move to shifter, to add to the fun: - pixie: fast movement - Kobold command: disable DC 35+ locks - Mind flayer: set a higher intelligence stat Have you considered that part of the charm of HG is having many different things requiring different classes? Shifter already serves to fill the role of all classes to some extent, which is why it's great. Don't you think that giving it the ability to do even more things than it does already (and things that other classes kind of need as their purpose in life, like opening locks or having high Int) is asking a bit much? After all, if you can just change forms and open locks, then there's not much point to having a rogue, is there, since shifter can already do many other things that rogues can't do? As for the mind flayer thing, it's an interesting idea, but you should look into playing another class to ID gems. You can kill two birds with one stone and make a rogue-splash wizard ("loot mage") or PM ("loot lich") and be able to ID gems and pick locks, even. As said in that thread, Int traditionally doesn't change with shapeshifting, and it doesn't really make sense, so that's the main counterpoint for that idea, I think. You kind of just have to accept that those "non-physical" attributes stay the same when a shifter changes form. It is a cool idea, and to be fair, shifting as a concept is full of things that don't make sense anyway, so saying "Int shouldn't change because it doesn't make sense" is kind of silly, but nonetheless, shifting isn't really supposed to let your brain, personality, and spirit turn into the new shape--that's kind of part of you, and that stays the same, so that's why a shifter needs to have a high Wisdom for their DC--if those stats changed based on form, then the entire class would have to work on completely different mechanics.
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