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Post by jelricle on Jul 25, 2022 22:23:11 GMT
Go to middle and deep water Elemental planes take any Flotsam Oozes that drop in your inventory and go to the Alchemist and turn them into wiki.hgweb.org/wiki/Elemental_Potion_of_Locate_Object job done no more snuffling around you will know immediately whether there are any secrets in areas and I know you have run the planes a lot so I'm guessing you may have these items lying around (assuming you didn't just sell them off) So: “Grind, grind, grind for potions of object location (or their ingredients) until you have enough for every map you are interested in.” Question 1: If a map has secret items, will there always be at least one secret item active? Or should I add: “. . . and then hope that you don’t get unlucky and at least one secret item is active” to the instructions above? Question 2: Are secret items ever level capped and, if so, is there a lowest level cap among all the secret items? Or should I add: “. . . . . . and then try to get through the preceding maps shackled to the forties and with forties level gear. ” to the instructions above? Ditto for secret rooms (although I believe secret rooms are always active, if you have not crossed the level cap, so the only applicable question might be: “is there a lowest level that secret rooms are ever capped at?”)
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Post by jelricle on Jul 25, 2022 22:30:07 GMT
also, about the DC 141 chest... just as a reminder about the whole "later content needs lockpicks" thing that was mentioned in the past 141 is just a kiddie toy LLs chest. in the grand scheme of things, this DC is quite low (hell+ standards). Actually, I think I have a build that can get a Shifter up to 140 base Open lock. Higher, if I sacrifice more feats for skill focuses . . . foci? . . . Anybody know the highest OL DC on the server? (or, at least, what is the highest you have encountered?) Still working on the Disable traps skill on the build (Without sacrificing too much attack and defense in the design). Anybody know the highest DT DC on the server? (or, at least, what is the highest you have encountered?)
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Post by boroie on Jul 25, 2022 22:41:27 GMT
Highest open lock DC - 170. This requires 127 skill, rolling an auto-20 and then using a +24 lock pick. It may require a greater restoration or some other skill bump means if affected by layer penalties. This is very common on hells/abyss runs, and sometimes seen in LL areas. Highest Disable Trap DC is 146 or 147 I think. 127 DT is fine to disable anything. Not always, but usually. Different areas have different rules. Limbo has 3 (nearly always). Hells can have 0-max. LLs usually have a max number and usually these are randomised to the different spots, but usually the same amount of secrets. Eg toyshop 2nd map will always put something in one of the 3 spots. If there is a secret room, this will always be active and always have loot chests inside. Secret items can be area capped (eg some hells secrets) which can be a level limit, but otherwise not typically. Usable Abyss secrets are tagged also I think. LLs/Limbo/Abos/Ely dont have usable area tagged items afaik (eg wands from pom/hive). Other secrets are normally crafting ingredients or sometimes BURs. And you are already familiar with secrets spots and secret rooms that are level locked. This is common in LLs. You can only find them with a character of the appropriate level or lower, they will give no skill check for a higher level character. There is a secret room capped at level 5 in the graveyard
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Post by jelricle on Jul 25, 2022 22:45:21 GMT
Thanks, Boroie. Lvl 5?! :-D Well, I really am only looking for this for the pre-paragon map secrets . . . and a few pre-immortal map items. I look forward to someday spending a relaxing evening going through each and every one of those darn trapped and locked containers that the Yukio and Taro have in their storeroom, once I get this build right! :-D ) . . . And you are already familiar with secrets spots and secret rooms that are level locked. This is common in LLs. You can only find them with a character of the appropriate level or lower, they will give no skill check for a higher level character. . . . Yeah. So far I have found Toyshop map 1, Uruborus final map, Pyramid second to last map and Rona Forest floor. I need to try Arcane Archives at lvl 51. :_(
The hunt continues! :-D
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Post by boroie on Jul 25, 2022 22:49:58 GMT
There are level locked secrets in all the LL areas I believe. Uro map 2 and 3, Dulv, Myco has a few, POM has at least one, Toyshop, Loca, Rona, Desert has a few, Dustbone, Thids, etc.
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Post by boroie on Jul 25, 2022 22:53:41 GMT
And you are already familiar with secrets spots and secret rooms that are level locked. This is common in LLs. You can only find them with a character of the appropriate level or lower, they will give no skill check for a higher level character.
Using locate object (potion, vestige torch or moliated guildmaster glint) will point arrows at the secrets even if they are level locked btw.
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Post by jelricle on Jul 25, 2022 23:01:04 GMT
Highest open lock DC - 170. This requires 127 skill, rolling an auto-20 and then using a +24 lock pick. It may require a greater restoration or some other skill bump means if affected by layer penalties. This is very common on hells/abyss runs, and sometimes seen in LL areas. Highest Disable Trap DC is 146 or 147 I think. 127 DT is fine to disable anything. . . . Argh! retooling the build. Even if I get an item with "Skill focus: Open Lock", I can only get up to 149! :-D Still, that could at least handle most locks. I have not yet hit such a dreaded "DC 42" lock. Do you know what the highest disable trap DC is?
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Post by jelricle on Jul 25, 2022 23:06:56 GMT
There are level locked secrets in all the LL areas I believe. Uro map 2 and 3, Dulv, Myco has a few, POM has at least one, Toyshop, Loca, Rona, Desert has a few, Dustbone, Thids, etc. I'm pretty sure that Beholders does not have any secrets. Either that or a) I was extremely unlucky and none of them were active b) The devs were cruel enough to either make the search DC higher than 122, a spot or tumble DC higher than I had, without listing the failed check, or the level cap lower than 51! :-) Using locate object (potion, vestige torch or moliated guildmaster glint) will point arrows at the secrets even if they are level locked btw. Awesome! You just made my day and restored my faith in the design skills of the devs.
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Post by chirality on Jul 26, 2022 0:44:58 GMT
Argh! retooling the build. Even if I get an item with "Skill focus: Open Lock", I can only get up to 149! :-D Still, that could at least handle most locks. "Most locks" may be true, considering most of the game is filled with chests. From the sheer number of locks openable, you might be able to hit most locks. Just to beat a dead horse though, even 150 is barely scratching the surface of chests on higher-LL runs. Of course, exploring for fun doesn't mean you have to be able to get deep hells chests (maybe you're skipping some runs for the project because you choose to solo and obviously something like cania or nessus isn't feasible), but even a run like Rona can have chests with DC higher than you will be able to achieve without picks. Maybe that's fine, but you will have to continue moving goalposts and re-defining your build's niche as you realize even areas you can solo might have chests that are out of reach. The good news is that most of these are sure to be filled with garbage (because many may not even pop BURs despite possibly needing a BUR pick to open). However, the bad news is that you'll never know what's in there unless you watch a real rogue do it in a party Anyway: sorry to keep naysaying, but you're backing yourself into an awkward little corner by designing a build that can't even open chests from L55-60 areas. (You mentioned wanting this for "pre-paragon" areas, but hells is almost 20 years old and designed for L60 max) Without picks, you're looking at basically maxing out the point where OL DCs just start to get real. I know it's a lot of shooting down your dreams, but you might not have realized what we meant in the past when we talked about picks being crucial. To re-iterate the numbers here, lockpicks up to +24 are required for DC 170. In other words, you're looking at far more than just a few points of DC off. Aside from that, even LL runs have chests with high DCs like this. Think about it: the LL content OL DCs scale up towards that number. This system is barely getting started at the point where you are topping out; even the lowliest picks are +15. Do you know what the highest disable trap DC is? Just to repeat the part about the rogue level again, too--disarming traps is where the "hardcoded" "requirement" comes in. Without 1 rogue level to disarm traps at their normal DC, you will be limited. Non-rogues can still attempt to recover a trap that they can't disarm, but this option increases DC by +10. If it were as easy as setting off a trap that you can't disable and just pick the lock, your project wouldn't be in as bad of a spot, but unfortunately this is another issue that puts many chests out of your reach, no matter what kind of tweaking you do with gear and feats.
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Post by jelricle on Jul 26, 2022 3:32:41 GMT
Argh! retooling the build. Even if I get an item with "Skill focus: Open Lock", I can only get up to 149! :-D Still, that could at least handle most locks. . . . Just to beat a dead horse though, even 150 is barely scratching the surface of chests on higher-LL runs. . . . ?! boroie said that the highest DC lock is 170. That means if I can get up to 150 bas OL, I can open any chest in the game by taking 20. Are you saying boroie was wrong? Of course, exploring for fun doesn't mean you have to be able to get deep hells chests (maybe you're skipping some runs for the project because you choose to solo and obviously something like cania or nessus isn't feasible), but even a run like Rona can have chests with DC higher than you will be able to achieve without picks. Ugh, Rona has OL's higher than 169?! I haven't seen them yet but ugh. To re-iterate the numbers here, lockpicks up to +24 are required for DC 170. In other words, you're looking at far more than just a few points of DC off. . . . I really am not following. If I can get my base up to 149, then I would only be off by one point, when taking 20, I would think. Is this another "Non thieves need an additional 10 DC" type thing, like with traps? I think you may have missed my earlier post. At the moment, I have a build that can get a Shifter up to 140 base Open lock. I think I can tweak it up to 146, which would get me 149 base OL, if I get an SF OL item, before taking 20. (Unfortunately, it eats the heck up from my skill point pool) Do you know what the highest disable trap DC is? Just to repeat the part about the rogue level again, too--disarming traps is where the "hardcoded" "requirement" comes in. Without 1 rogue level to disarm traps at their normal DC, you will be limited. Non-rogues can still attempt to recover a trap that they can't disarm, but this option increases DC by +10. If it were as easy as setting off a trap that you can't disable and just pick the lock, your project wouldn't be in as bad of a spot, but unfortunately this is another issue that puts many chests out of your reach, no matter what kind of tweaking you do with gear and feats. Yeah, I would probably need to lose a PL and CL via a rogue splash. :_( Do you know the highest DT DC, so I have something to work towards? (without the +10 to recover)
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Post by jelricle on Jul 26, 2022 4:51:05 GMT
Made it! 153 base Open Lock (assuming +50 from equipment, +4 points in dex from demi x 2 for +2, along with +14 dex from equipment for +7, and finally a skill focus open lock item for another +3)
Search and Disable trap are 131 (assuming the above for int and SF DT and search items)
Would I need them that high? Every point saved in them over 43 is 3 skill points for other skills. According to boroie, I can save 9 skill points on OL.
Wisdom 60, assuming double demi for +4 and wis arti for +2
DC is maxed for wildshape and construct. I will be 3xfoci with no paragon (so missing 2 DC) in outsider and humanoid (assuming an epode for one of them) and I have vampire GS in undead (but only 1 foci)
only 1 PL and CL were sacrificed for a rogue splash.
I also am always moving too much to take advantage of my planned improved expertise (or basic expertise) so I could probably also get two non starter, pre-epic feats back.
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Post by jelricle on Jul 26, 2022 4:52:06 GMT
Ooooo, eventually, I could have +16 gear for an extra point in each!
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Post by chainlink on Jul 26, 2022 6:54:06 GMT
I'm sure you have been told before but characters without Rogue levels are unable to disable traps over a certain DC and need to instead recover them which due to the increased DC (Disable Trap +10) for this action makes it very difficult to achieve.
From the vanilla game
Special: Rogue is the only class capable of disarming traps with a DC of 35 or greater. With 5 or more ranks in the set trap skill a character gets a +2 synergy bonus on disable trap checks.
The special prohibition involving rogues only applies to disarming a trap. Any class can successfully examine, flag, or recover any trap, provided the skill check is passed.
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Post by boroie on Jul 26, 2022 9:05:35 GMT
Made it! 153 base Open Lock (assuming +50 from equipment, +4 points in dex from demi x 2 for +2, along with +14 dex from equipment for +7, and finally a skill focus open lock item for another +3) Search and Disable trap are 131 (assuming the above for int and SF DT and search items) Your calculation seems to have some issues. Are you counting paragon skill points? These do not add to the skill ranks, they are used to soak up layer penalties. To max Open lock you need: 63 skills, 50 magic cap, 14 dex mod (requiring 38 dex). If you have a skill focus item that gives +3 on top of the +50 magic cap then you can get by with lower dex, but they appear to be exceedingly rare going by recent !chat/!newbie messages in game. The engine cap is 127 regardless of how much dex you exceed the base requirement by - if you have sufficient base ranks, magic bonus and stat bonus to hit 127 then that is it. To put it bluntly, a lockpick is always required once the DC gets to 148 or higher. For disable trap, again the cap is 127. There is a hard requirement to have rogue levels to disable traps with DC 36 and higher. While you can recover a trap with a +10 difficulty check, that means without rogue levels you can max out at DC 117. Search is the same - you need a combination of skill ranks, skill bonus and stats and it maxes at 127. The top search DCs are 147, requiring rolling a 20. Note: A skill focus item lets you have effectively 53 in the magic skill cap instead of 50, meaning you require either 3 less base skill ranks, or 6 less [dex/int] to hit the 127 cap. They do not add +3 to the 127 cap to let you hit 130. You can check your in-game skills checks with the command !skillcheck <skill number> <DC> . You can list the skill numbers with !skillslist. !skillcheck 9 170 (open lock)!skillcheck 2 127 (disable trap)!skillcheck 14 147 (search)
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Post by jelricle on Jul 26, 2022 12:11:55 GMT
I'm sure you have been told before but characters without Rogue levels are unable to disable traps over a certain DC Yeah, that’s why I said “ only 1 PL and CL were sacrificed for a rogue splash.” Do you know what the max disable trap DC is?
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