Penetrating Strike

[chirality]

Jan 25, 2022 9:44:54 GMT chainlink said:

Also make it based on the applicable stat (Str or Dex) so that Dex sins don't lose out.

I always assumed that the way it was designed, intentionally catered to Str assassins more. Considering how dex-friendly the assassin class, and the mod at large is, I strenuously disagree with any notion that Dex sins losing out on anything is really a big risk.

That said, I never liked the existing implementation that basically rewards Str assassins (which are, in theory, doing more damage vs non-MS-able foes in the first place) doubly based on their Strength; the problem with this approach is that the Str assassin is already going to be doing a lot more damage to anything vulnerable to their weapon's phys type, and having the PS packet deal essentially another burst of Str mod just makes it so that the feature offers nice returns when that damage "penetrates" but they lose out twice on anything that doesn't take that damage well (having both their base Str bonus damage and then the PS bonus damage reduced as well).

I think an argument could be made for Dex applying for a Penetrating Strike concept, by capitalizing more on precision than brute force (eg penetrating the vulnerable spot/chink in the armor/etc, rather than penetrating via raw power), so I do appreciate and respect the need to bring up how Dex/Dex assassins are largely underserved by the class feature, which should probably be addressed somehow. On the flip side, however, is the question of whether or not the PS feature with +Str but not +Dex designed to already reward Str more (and if so, why should that change now), as well as the fact that--again--Dex is innately superior and also has seen multiple buffs and rewards, both directly (offhand weapon honeable--directly a sick Dexer buff), and indirectly (eg mob restatting, dex-favored-mod changs), whereas Str has seen only nerfs (eg losing impressive 2h%, higher AC more desirable in limbo).

There's also the fact that Str assassin as a concept is a far cry from what it was at the time that Str assassin enjoyed some en vogue feel, but that's a big derail. Suffice to say that Dex sins losing out vs Str sins isn't a threat at the moment, and is unlikely to be a threat in the foreseeable future. If PS was changed to reward Dex more than it does now, but keep the same overall mechanic, it would simply be yet another buff for the superior build path, and only reinforce the existing meta. To really address this derail though, I'd like to hear from Funky about his stance on why PS only gets Str bonus damage in the first place, because I suspect that it was done very purposefully and I don't think the reasoning behind it is no longer valid (if anything, it's more valid now than ever before).

[tomaan]

Not to be nitpicky but it's interesting that you are against "integrated damage" because "you already have options with integrated damage" and you would "try something different" but you note that your idea is more or less copying an AA feature with its damage implementation... Not to be snarky, but turning up your nose at the simple and obvious solution of having integrating PS damage, because it's not a different enough mechanic, is odd; turning around and using the same feature but with the damage calculation borrowed from an AA mechanic...I don't see the novelty there.

funny how you say "not to be snarky" after posting nothing but snark.

I honestly don't know how or why you'd choose to interpret "it's not a competition" "just another way to skin a cat" and "not to take away from anything else....it's just about build diversity" as being "against" or "turning my nose up" at anything and, frankly, I don't really care to find out.

You disagree? Cool. You're entitled to your opinion...just don't project your own issues on to others who are equally entitled to their own opinion.

and the excuse to not make it integrated is because it lets you invent something else

Yes. I will always, always, always, always, always, always support ideas that lets players trying something new on a game that's pushing two decades old.
Always.
Every time.
Without hesitation.

[simpetar]

Jan 25, 2022 18:11:01 GMT chirality said:

(offhand weapon honeable--directly a sick Dexer buff), and indirectly (eg mob restatting, dex-favored-mod changs)

Off-hand weapon honable is unfortunately a false assumption. You cannot deliver MS or PS with a weapon held in the off-hand. You can however deliver MS/PS with an off-hand attack from a double weapon (typically double scimitar, best crit range), but they are famously strength based. I believe what the update meant is that there is no limit in the number of weapons that can be honed at once, as opposed to 2 weapons in the past. "Off-weapon" being your secondary, tertiary etc., so you can switch as much as you like.

[chirality]

Jan 25, 2022 19:30:48 GMT simpetar said:

Off-hand weapon honable is unfortunately a false assumption. You cannot deliver MS or PS with a weapon held in the off-hand.

Well, either the update didn't work, or you're living in the past  

UPDATE 2020-12-01 said:

-Assassin scabbard now adds keen, and can hone offhand weapons.

Jan 25, 2022 19:30:48 GMT simpetar said:

You can however deliver MS/PS with an off-hand attack from a double weapon (typically double scimitar, best crit range), but they are famously strength based. I believe what the update meant is that there is no limit in the number of weapons that can be honed at once, as opposed to 2 weapons in the past. "Off-weapon" being your secondary, tertiary etc., so you can switch as much as you like.

That's how it worked for a long time, yes. It's also--aside from higher Str damage/hit and PS damage--just about the only feather than Str assassin had in their cap (the other being what was for a time overpowered 2h%): the ability to use a double weapon to deliver MS with "both hands" and technically gain some slight advantage over a dual-wielding dexer who received the benefit of high AC with dual-wield APR (which translated to little effective damage increase but did alter the character's flurry order to allow for faster MSing--see the old minja which advertised this "feature").

The point I was making is hopefully more clear: honing only 1 weapon prevented dual-wield Dexers from having the ability to MS with their offhand attack, but did allow Str double-weapon users to MS with their offhand attacks. Dex-friendly UPDATE 2020-12-01 changed that, and that should elucidate the picture I was attempting to paint.

edit: Well, I thought I had tested and confirmed that it worked, after that update dropped, but my testing was clearly flawed (maybe I didn't read the log carefully, or maybe I just saw the buff apply on both weapons at once, saw the crit range increase from keen, and assumed it would work--maybe both). After checking again, you are correct: the buff applies (and the keen does work), but the offhand weapon is not capable of PS/MS at all. Also, as we discussed, it's worth noting that even getting the hone buff on the offhand weapon in the first place requires some clunky maneuvering, since the scabbard doesn't target anything anymore, so activating it just buffs the onhand weapon. Previously, activating the scabbard gave a target cursor which you could either use on the toon itself or on the weapon, but every time you re-used the scabbard, it would override any previous honing. Now, it definitely doesn't line up with the update note at all, and in any case, even though the hone buff no longer cancels any pre-existing one, having a honed offhand weapon still doesn't actually let you PS/MS, despite the weapon having the buff appear to be correct and despite the keen property applying correctly.