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Post by yune on Feb 7, 2022 23:11:47 GMT
Can Intuitive Attack be made to work with fists/monk gloves please?
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Post by chirality on Feb 8, 2022 17:53:12 GMT
are you sure that would be wise? (get it)
considering that monk features are already designed to be balanced with the three-attribute interplay of Wis/Dex/Str (eg, considering that wis already scales both fist +enh bonus and sf dc), this would probably best be justified with a rework or overhaul of monk mechanics. simply giving intuitive attack to fist but leaving everything else unchanged would essentially make it the overwhelmingly-attractive build option.
i always assumed that the +enh wisdom bonus to fists was kind of intended to be a built-in "intuitive attack"-type feature that was conceptualized to avoid having to deal with balancing the application of a straightforward wis-as-AB feat to fists. since the PnP feat is already intended for natural weapons/fists anyway, i figured that HG's take on it didn't include fists by design (perhaps an implementation issue, perhaps a balance issue, or both).
i would have liked for intuitive attack would be usable for fists by default (as the feat is "supposed to"), but the monk class would need some significant tweaking to have dex and str actually be viable build alternatives to wis. (gloves would likely need significant tweaking as well, although per earlier threads/discussions about the oddity of gloves vs bracers, this may need some attention anyway)
as-is, such a scenario just makes wis the obvious solution to monk's built-in MAD-ness and also takes what's already arguably the best base class (by 3e/3.5/d20/vanilla mechanics, no less true in HG) and makes it even better--which was actually the result when older PnP class features/feats allowed builds to even more capitalize on wisdom investment at the expense of dex/str.
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Post by yune on Feb 8, 2022 20:11:22 GMT
Fist monks are pretty awful right now, they could use the help.
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Post by tomaan on Feb 8, 2022 22:13:43 GMT
Fist monks are pretty awful right now, they could use the help. Agreed - getting the maximum wisdom enchantment bonus on gloves is prohibitive imo....not even worth the effort without at least 1x demi. This would be a (relatively?) simple hack to get to that without having to give up too much AB and you have a natural synergy with stunning fist/quivering palm That said, I'm not sure it would be enough to make unarmed monk an attractive end-game build (assuming that's the goal?). I think that would take a pretty significant amount of tinkering. I'd also be in favor of: - linking the unarmed enchantment bonus to monk level with pure monks hitting +20 at level 60
- putting quivering palm on a timer or giving more uses per day
- making stunning fist like sneak attack: pure monks bypass immunity
But, again, those would probably require a lot of tinkering....may not be worth the time investment. EDIT: I don't think this damage applies....maybe start there and give it a significant boost? |
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Post by chirality on Feb 8, 2022 23:16:25 GMT
Fist monks are pretty awful right now, they could use the help. That needs to be addressed independently of delivering a targeted buff to a particular fist build type, which is what this would do. This wouldn't help "fist monks" as they are currently known, but instead would create a brand-new build archetype (the intuitive attack fist monk) which would supersede existing fist monk builds and relegate any non-intuitive attack build concept to inferiority. This new fist monk meta would probably be better than current fist monks, so we'd end up with a fist monk that is an improvement over current fist monks, but it would only reduce build diversity and pigeonhole fist monks to being built with intuitive attack. Any future fist monk edit would then have to contend with sub-balancing intuitive attack vs str or dex, and the obvious mechanisms for balancing this would be, ironically, tweaking the features that already exist, and which already aren't rewarding enough for existing fist monks, such as the oft-griped +enh wisdom scaling or the bonus phys damage that effectively doesn't do anything in the mod at the moment. Ultimately, it's a roundabout way of buffing the fist monk archetype, true, but it does so by manufacturing a new archetype from thin air and elevating it above the current archetypes, while not helping those at all. (Again, unlike some hypothetical buff that happens to reward certain build options more than others, this change would explicitly only reward a new build path and not do anything for other build paths). Compare this to buffing the fist monk archetype in general, as it already exists, without altering intuitive attack to do something brand-new that it's never done before and that no items or class features have been designed around. Funky hasn't quite made clear why the physical damage bonus is intended to not actually do anything, but considering that he did read and respond to the thread that reported it as a bug, I can only assume he's not planning on changing it. As for the wisdom +enh bonus, we could hope for a more generous calculation as a buff for fist monks. However, much like BK Str SP, despite many complaints, it doesn't seem like there's been a convincing-enough argument made, yet. Buffing fist monks could be a thread. I don't think doing so in this way is the best option, but it is an option, so discussing intuitive attack working on fists should probably remain the focus of this thread, and a discussion about buffing fist monks should probably be the focus of another thread. One thing that's worth keeping in mind about intuitive attack and fists is that it's also supposed to work for natural weapons, which would open up some interesting options for shifters. Do you suggest that intuitive attack only be useable by unarmed, or should it be applicable for natural weapons as well? |
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Post by KnightErrant on Feb 9, 2022 1:33:29 GMT
iirc the Wisdom enhancement bonus was done to force build choices and also because it was easier to implement (less zots) than modifying IoF and GMW spell.
KE.
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Post by simpetar on Feb 9, 2022 8:37:18 GMT
That needs to be addressed independently of delivering a targeted buff to a particular fist build type, which is what this would do. This wouldn't help "fist monks" as they are currently known, but instead would create a brand-new build archetype (the intuitive attack fist monk) which would supersede existing fist monk builds and relegate any non-intuitive attack build concept to inferiority. This new fist monk meta would probably be better than current fist monks, so we'd end up with a fist monk that is an improvement over current fist monks, but it would only reduce build diversity and pigeonhole fist monks to being built with intuitive attack. I can't see how. Intuitive attack didn't break threaders, rangers, wisdom staffies or any other applicable builds. Intuitive Attacks lets you use wismod for AB, not damage, so damage would be intact. Monk AC benefits from wis the same amount as dex, so even if you took a chunk from dex and put it in wis, you end up with the exact same number, only now you are much weaker to dex checks (and stronger to wis checks, yey? monks are completely immune to those anyway). Stunning Fist / Quivering Palm are easily capped even on "normal" dex or str builds, and wisdom plays only a minor role: it takes 6 great wisdom feats to get the same increase in DC as 1 improved stunning fist feat - it's not hard to figure out which one is better for optimization  |
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Post by tomaan on Feb 9, 2022 16:38:49 GMT
That needs to be addressed independently of delivering a targeted buff to a particular fist build type, which is what this would do. This wouldn't help "fist monks" as they are currently known, but instead would create a brand-new build archetype (the intuitive attack fist monk) which would supersede existing fist monk builds and relegate any non-intuitive attack build concept to inferiority. This new fist monk meta would probably be better than current fist monks, so we'd end up with a fist monk that is an improvement over current fist monks, but it would only reduce build diversity and pigeonhole fist monks to being built with intuitive attack. I can't see how. Intuitive attack didn't break threaders, rangers, wisdom staffies or any other applicable builds. Intuitive Attacks lets you use wismod for AB, not damage, so damage would be intact. Monk AC benefits from wis the same amount as dex, so even if you took a chunk from dex and put it in wis, you end up with the exact same number, only now you are much weaker to dex checks (and stronger to wis checks, yey? monks are completely immune to those anyway). Stunning Fist / Quivering Palm are easily capped even on "normal" dex or str builds, and wisdom plays only a minor role: it takes 6 great wisdom feats to get the same increase in DC as 1 improved stunning fist feat - it's not hard to figure out which one is better for optimization Agreed, and I haven't seen any build "diversity" on monk since returning two years ago. First monk is dead in the water. In fact, I don't think I've seen anybody using "traditional" monk weapons in hells or beyond. There are a lot of monk CC builds, but those are more for the defensive benefits than anything else. I'm not complaining, mind you, it would be nice if there were dominant build options for every class but that's a pretty big ask and, while fist monk needs some love, the class itself isn't "broken" at all. Just making an observation is all . |
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Post by chirality on Feb 9, 2022 19:53:05 GMT
I claim that it would allow for wisdom-based fist monks to be built that can still achieve enough dex/str/both to not be useless in combat from a stat check standpoint, while receiving AB and AC from their main stat (like dex) but also having the benefit of not needing to invest in wisdom as a mediocre-threshold offstat (42 wis isn't "extremely" high--it does require some unnecessary investment though) to get extra damage. This would basically be a str fist monk with wisdom investment, but swapping wisdom and str. So, maybe I was overeager to call it superior, but...if not, then there's been no actual buff to the fist monk "class" at all, has there? Dex fist monk (nonexistent?) is receiving wisdom bonus to damage, and otherwise is missing damage significantly; a str fist monk wants to invest in wis to capitalize on their damage which is already high by virtue of str, as well as get AC that they're not receiving from their primary stat (like dexers); a wis fist monk would lose a str build's str damage and high-str checks in exchange for the benefit of being a dexer with primary stat to AB and AC. That claim could be wrong, in which case that entire argument goes out the window, but I don't think it changes the fact that it wouldn't buff str fist monks (which is basically the only fist monk, -> the fist monk that is awful and needs buffing) at all, and if it's not better than str fist monks, then that means it's equivalent or worse, which therefore means we haven't buffed fist monks at all: just made a new build type possible that's worse than the existing build type that already is "awful." If they're both equal, then we have increased build diversity (if this is the case, then I'm all for it), but setting aside the fact that it's unlikely for one to not be better, then we still have fist monks sucking, just two different types, and if the goal is to buff fist monks, we haven't done that anyway. If the wisdom fist monk would be equal to the str fist monk, and both still are bad, then as I said previously, we'd still need to buff them both, except now we'd have to worry about wisdom as a primary stat, which is tricky. I'm not sure that dex fist monk has ever been a thing, other than a MMoD concept (chain has a really ancient build [pre-2010 even] posted), so if anything, perhaps we could say that fist monk is only even viable on str, taking advantage of glove phys types in a hope to have solid tankability while doing useful phys damage; the fact that dex fist monk is nonsensical hasn't been addressed en masse by the community or asked for changes to make it worthwhile, so intuitive attack fist monk is really more about wisdom fist monk vs str fist monk, and fist monk being awful is really just about str fist monk (the only viable build, aside from MMoD that no longer has much reason to exist, and when it did, was limited in scope/application anyway) being no competition vs other classes. I suppose you could view the wisdom base as basically treating str like the str base treats wis in terms of an offstat (probably wanting to take OC/DC and get meaningful str bonus damage?), but with hitting high Str check as the primary difference vs hitting higher AC? Let's imagine a hypothetical 70 wis/42 str versus 70 str/42 wis build, both with 44 dex (not a really good "comparison" but it's just a loose swap of Vichya's str fist monk stats to get a rough idea): the str build gets +15ish more phys damage and can handle goristro str check, with reasonable 141 AC @ finished state, whereas the wis one would have high dexer-tier AC, lose high-str checkability, and easily hit 70 SF DC (possibly saving a feat in the process). I'm not sure if dex fist monk is even a thing Intuitive attack didn't break threaders, rangers, wisdom staffies or any other applicable builds. None of those classes are CC monks, so the relevance isn't clear. Actually, out of those classes/builds, none of them are even monks at all, except the wisodm staffy, which ironically was (apparently) deemed broken...and nerfed... On the other hand, we could look at intuitive attack monks (which are obviously non-existent in general, although torin did post such a build), which clearly weren't broken by intuitive attack, but these builds seem rather underwhelming, since weapons don't receive bonus damage from wisdom, nor do they seek to take advantage of stunning fist or receive the benefit of choosing phys type (making them essentially just sacrificing dex/str check ability for zero benefit). Intuitive Attacks lets you use wismod for AB, not damage, so damage would be intact. As mentioned previously, however, monk fists have a built-in feature to receive wismod for damage...which makes pursuing this line of argument rather strange. Unless we go with the assumption that any str or dex fist monk build hits the +16 dmg bonus without sacrifice (which would therefore nullify any argument that the wisdom bonus dmg calculation should be tweaked), then going intuitive attack would indeed impact damage, exactly contrary to this argument. Hitting 42 wisdom isn't unattainable for a dex or str fist monk, but it does translate into a cost:benefit decision, and sacrifices must be made; the sacrifice isn't immaterial or intangible, since saving points on wisdom to put elsewhere would be a greater benefit than putting them in wisdom. Monk AC benefits from wis the same amount as dex, so even if you took a chunk from dex and put it in wis, you end up with the exact same number, only now you are much weaker to dex checks (and stronger to wis checks, yey? monks are completely immune to those anyway). Except that if you took a chunk from dex and put it in wis, you wouldn't be sacrificing anything for attaining the +16 fist damage bonus, whereas a str or dex build must hit 42 wis to hit that cap, which requires investing wisdom more than would be required for any other purpose (in other words, subtracting from dex or str on levelups/feats, or from int/con on creation): especially, as you noted, considering that monks are already largely immune to wisdom-based checks anyway. Stunning Fist / Quivering Palm are easily capped even on "normal" dex or str builds Are they? Vichya's str fist monk build only attains 66 DC even at L80 x2 +16s, and that's with the 42 wisdom for hitting the +16 dmg cap. His stat spread for a zeny str fist monk seems reasonably standard/optimal; albeit the build is old, there's a lack of recent examples (since, as we've established anyway, fist monks are essentially dead, and even the "mmod" concept is not only long-dead in usefulness but also designed without focusing on SF anyway). wisdom plays only a minor role: it takes 6 great wisdom feats to get the same increase in DC as 1 improved stunning fist feat - it's not hard to figure out which one is better for optimization I don't think I'd call it "minor" just because the calculation is such that the feats scale far more efficiently than wisdom. Yes, overall, assuming the feats are taken, the impact of wisdom is much less on a feat:feat comparison. However, that valuation ignores the fact that imp sf feats only do one thing (making them require the *3 multiplier to be worth taking), whereas great stat feats have multiple dimensions of return (and, in the case of wisdom on an intuitive attack fist monk, the return on great wisdom investment is amongst the highest of any attribute/build combination in the game). Presenting the data in the format of comparing feat to feat skews the representation, because "it takes 6 great wis feats to get the same increase as 1 imp sf feat" makes your brain think "6 to 1 ratio bad." However, the value of wisdom bonus to DC is 1:1, which is equivalent to caster spell DC and far greater than other "tank special ability" features which receive a fractionalized dilution of an attribute's modifier (like divine shield AC, assassin/ranger DC, etc). Just because feats provide more benefit, doesn't mean that wisdom shouldn't be accounted for in the model. Classifying the wisdom portion of the equation as "minor" and subtly claiming that it's not important, because the feats do more, isn't really fair, since wisdom is indeed needed to hit the cap, and since of course, with DC, every point is important anyway. If we phrased this as "SF receives full wisdom bonus to DC" we could make wisdom sound important, right? |
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Post by yune on Feb 9, 2022 21:16:36 GMT
Wis fist monks can't currently exist because of no intuitive attack. Why not allow a new build type to exist?
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Post by chirality on Feb 9, 2022 23:26:25 GMT
Either a new wis fist monk is so good that it overshadows other builds and satisfies the need to buff fist monks, at the cost of invalidating existing fist monks, or...the new wis fist monk isn't good enough, and we still have an unsatisfied need to buff fist monks. The question is, which is it?
If it's the first case, then we have a new build path that's viable relative to other classes, but it's the only way to build a fist monk (which therefore accomplishes exactly the opposite of introducing a new build path to increase diversity); if it's the second case, we have a new build path that's viable relative to other fist monks, but they all are inferior relative to other classes, and we still have to buff them all anyway (and which could have been done with that dev time instead).
Is your goal to buff fist monks, or is your goal to make wis fist monks exist?
If it's the latter, then it's okay to just say that. I think you're trying too to hard sell it when you package the idea with the excuse/rationale of "fist monk needs a buff anyway;" it feels like you're conflating a new build-diversity-increasing option with the fact that fist monks are bad and need to be buffed.
Just say "here's something that would be cool--by the way, why doesn't this exist anyway? isn't intuitive attack kind of supposed to work for unarmed, why doesn't HG have it set up like this?" and maybe Funky could offer a rationale regarding why it wasn't just done in the first place when intuitive attack was implemented. (It stands to reason that there's some explanation, because not having it work for fists would be a conscious choice when taking the feat that does that in original form).
If the goal is to make wis fist monks exist, I think it's a laudable goal. I would like to see intuitive attack work with fists (I always loved intuitive attack/wisdom-based unarmed monks, and there's tons of official and unofficial PnP source material that makes use of the theme), with the caveat that fist monks first and foremost need a buff, and it would be easier to get the fist monk archetype "working better" without adding in the new variable of re-designing intuitive attack first.
Regardless, if the goal is this, it's still a matter of making brand-new shit at a time where brand-new shit is kind of...well, unrealistic, especially when that brand-new shit will not solve any existing problems (other fist monks are still as bad as they are now, and the wis one would have to be a good deal stronger in order to translate into a meaningful buff to the class), and possibly create new ones.
If the goal is to buff fist monks, then as I said initially, that should be done. I don't think anyone would argue that, but that's also not a great bargaining position for convincing Funky that something needs to be done; producing data that shows fist monks need a buff would be the way to go, here. In any case, however, enabling intuitive attack for fists is not the logical way to accomplish this, given the flowchart.
There's three potential outcomes, and as I tldr-ed through in the previous post, none of them really buff fist monks in a way that makes sense:
1) The wis fist monk is superior to existing options, which "buffs" the archetype nominally, but at the cost of reducing build diversity and making "fist monk" synonymous with "wis fist monk" but leaving the overall inferiority of the "class" still begging for a solution anyway (since even if it would be superior, without other changes, the resulting archetype still wouldn't be a top-tier class, or probably even second-tier)
2) The wis fist monk is perfectly-balanced with existing options, which means no buff has occurred; only a new option has been added, which (as I said previously) is great, but hasn't actually done anything about buffing fist monks
3) The wis fist monk is inferior to existing options, in which case build diversity hasn't improved, nor have fist monks been buffed
Obviously, in all three scenarios, it's almost guaranteed that further fist monk buffs are warranted, which leads back to the point made in the first sentence of my second post.
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Post by woqued on Feb 14, 2022 8:42:10 GMT
Upsides of being a monk that utilizes fist over weapon...
*crickets*
We get a torch slot and lose a glove slot? Weapon monk still has option to use 1 weapon + torch and still retain more attacks than other classes, and when not in need of torch can go with 2 weapons again.
Comparing different stat fist monks:
Fist monk stat spread is always mainstat 60+, other two 40+ but less than 50 due to the way stat checks, wisdom for enh boni and their inherent low ab works on HG as well as them not getting any form of LL stat gains. You need 100+ ab, 40+ in str/dex to stay in melee combat as a standalone char in the endgame, and 42+ in Wis to get the full effect of bonuses for fisting. So with that out of the way, let's look at the comparison:
- Wis monk saves feats that others need to use for stunning fist DC if they wish to cap it out, roughly 2-3 feats; but have to pay with intuitive feat unless it was built in to the class instead of being tacked on the feat
- ...But does so by getting a lesser save than dexer (wis vs ref)
- and getting a worse stat for stat checks (wis vs str/dex)
- Lower damage than STR
- No crit immunity like STR
Seems fairly balanced to me. Doesn't fix the class. They're playable, but never in contention for top dog under any circumstances. They lack damage and utility over competition, arguably even survivability compared to some other classes in the game.
Nobody asked for this and it should be a separate thread but here's some casual fist/pure monk fantasy list stuff:
Monks with their triple-stat requirement should get the treatment every other class has been getting over the years to even the playing field: get +4 to [stat] in 40-60 as they level. Many classes seem to be more popular as monk splashers than legit monks, this would even the playing field. More outside the box ideas:
Problem: low ab for a class that requires such a wide array of stats without stellar inherent damage
Solution: Monk CC with at least 35 monk levels pre-40: gain +1 ab with monk weapons and fists at 30 and every 5 monk levels after, capping out at +6 at 60. Yes, this would punish wm monks and rightfully so due to Rhek/Zeny being a thing. This would still allow shadowdancer for Edodge, ftr for spec if not rhek/zeny, bg/pala splashing, or wm5. If it was 30, the wm 7 + bg/pala 3 or ftr 4 sd 5 would be too far superior to the more puritan monks.
Problem: fists have a hard time competing with weapons and monk keen being limited to 40 is pigeon-holey, too harsh and not good enough a boon.
Solution: Move glove keening to monk 30.
Problem: Monk 40 not lucrative enough.
Solution:
Monk 40: reached zen state allowing monk to commune with the natural world.
With Empty Body active, the monk gains:
- Wis mod/2 to exotic DR
- Dex mod/2 to Elemental DR
- Str mod/2 to Physical DR
Net effect: main stat 60-70 (12-16 dr) offstat 7-10 dr, roughly compareable to the caster epics in power.
With Wholeness of body active, the monk gains:
- Wis+Dex+Str mod /6 to esoteric DR. On a regular endgame monk with a ~~66-70 + ~~15-18 + ~~15-18 stat spread of main/secondary stats, they'd gain ~~10 esoteric dr with this up. Roughly equivalent to Aegis.
These stack on top of normal gear/spell source DR like the caster epics, but not with the caster epics. Goal would be to give pure monks a benefit and to help them deal with HG's unforgiving kickback system.
Problem: kickback. Unfair, cry
Solution:
Monk 40:
- You have gained divine insight and surpassed mortal flesh. Gain refraction: 1/2 kickback prevention perk.
These two (ab + 40m survivability) on top of each other would allow monks to deal with the AB problem (same as Rogues have, rogues got oppourtunity to help out, monks have nothing) + help with not-suiciding to punching regular endgame baddies on the regular. This would keep current statusquo of monk building: splash to gain more dmg/saves, go pure to be sturdier. None of it would fix their inherent lack of utility and damage, but it would help with their unique problems more modern HG classes no longer suffer from - as much anyway. All 4 of these changes together would obviously be too much, that's not the suggestion. Merely pointing out 3 legitimate issues the class has and four things that could help out and would be somewhat low zots (?) to implement.
Thanks for attending my ted talk, back to lurker life
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Post by chainlink on Feb 14, 2022 9:04:17 GMT
Whilst fairly minor you did miss one advantage of fist monks, depending on the gloves you are using you can hotswap to deal all three physical damage types, something no other melee or ranged characters can do, although its no guarantee that the gloves in question will not have a healing damage type for things you want to hit with them.
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Post by simpetar on Feb 14, 2022 12:27:58 GMT
Whilst fairly minor you did miss one advantage of fist monks, depending on the gloves you are using you can hotswap to deal all three physical damage types, something no other melee or ranged characters can do, although its no guarantee that the gloves in question will not have a healing damage type for things you want to hit with them. Gloves can be crafted and buffed, like any other weapon. They take gmw / iof too, although it doesn't increase their enhancement, only adds attack bonus. |
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Post by chainlink on Feb 14, 2022 12:42:30 GMT
Whilst fairly minor you did miss one advantage of fist monks, depending on the gloves you are using you can hotswap to deal all three physical damage types, something no other melee or ranged characters can do, although its no guarantee that the gloves in question will not have a healing damage type for things you want to hit with them. Gloves can be crafted and buffed, like any other weapon. They take gmw / iof too, although it doesn't increase their enhancement, only adds attack bonus. Nope not the ones with different physical damage types as they are either area set or abyssal (get random 6d6 I don't believe gems exist to change these?), whilst you can change the ele/exotic types on the DB ones you are stuck with piercing on these. Its unlikely you will get exactly what you want on the Abyssal gloves however they are rarely near the top of the pick list in these runs so you should be able to obtain a few sets of them to marginally increase the changes of getting something near optimal. |
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