Nino the Dominated (Sorcerer 19, Blackguard 21)

[drunkenboastor]

This is a theory build, I have not tested it. The concept is it is a high DC caster that uses spells first, then uses a melee weapon to finish things off. I would also stress that this would not be a leveling build, Hells (along with Ely, Uro, Limbo 1) would be torture with it's low dexterity, but I do think it could work well in a number of places as a specialized build. I was originally going to post a Ibixian variant of this but I was surprised how effect HE was. I did not look at Half-Cloud Giant, it may be similar in the end.

While this build is able to melee, it does not take any weapon feats. The intention is to use augments to cover all weapon feat needs. Combined with the weapon feat from augments and the need for spell slot equipment, I think this is a difficult build to equip.

This is a build that uses Blind Fight feat to overcome concealment when melee. In a normal situation I would trash any build that was to take this feat for that purpose, but this build does not have the skill points or feats to support a investment into maxing Listen. Because of the other equipment requirements, I think it would be difficult to max listen.

This build has Smite 10, but is not a build that depends upon smite for damage. Smite will do around 800 damage, but it will have a trouble hitting higher ac creatures. The closest build that I have played to this concept is a 12/28 Lash build, that I have used in mostly Limbo part 2 runs, and it's smite is very useful for low ac targets like Amorphions and Nishruu. Because smites are more situational I would not suggest taking extra smiting, unless nothing else has value.

I have not provided spell notes. For Sorcerer spells, I think spell selection is based on the run. Blackguard spell selection is easy, cold buff for self, with rest of 1s and 2s divine buffs. Level 3 BG spells are junk and not worth memorizing at all, maybe extended darkness for Ely run. Level 4, Death Ward critical immunity only lasts 2:06 or 4:12 extended. This build has no skill points invested in parry,  so managing critical hit immunity may require the use of the ring with critical immunity that is dropped by Lith. Blackguard spells are unavailable before first demigod iteration.

Base Race - Gnome
Sub Race - Half-Eladrin


Classes - Sorcerer 19, Blackguard 21


Alignment - Any Evil

Ability	Base	Sub	@60 Naked	@80 +16s
Strength	15	22	63	90
Dexterity	08	08	08	30
Constitution	10	10	10	32
Intelligence	08	08	08	30
Wisdom	09	09	09	31
Charisma	18	25	29	51

Ability notes:
- All ability increases to strength.
- Strength artifact used at 55.

Pre-Epic Feats
- Level Order - 1-12 Sorcerer, 13-20 Blackguard
Sub Race - Great Charisma I, Great Charisma II, Divine Shield
01 - Blooded
03 - Power Attack
06 - Cleave
09 - Still Spell, Reminder to set hide skill to 5.
12 - Extend Spell
15 - Divine Might
18 - Blind Fight
- Blind Fight could be taken with pandact. Extend spell is a convenience 

Epic Feats
- Level Order - 21-24 Blackguard, 25-26 Sorcerer, 27 Blackguard, 28-29 Sorcerer, 30 Blackguard, 31-32 Sorcerer, 33-39 Blackguard, 40 Sorcerer
-- Main reason for level order is feats need to be taken with Blackguard levels in order to take smite feats.
-- There is no skill dump.
21 - Great Smiting 1
24 - Great Smiting 2
27 - Great Smiting 3, Great Smiting 4
30 - Great Smiting 5
33 - Great Smiting 6
34 - Great Smiting 7
36 - Great Smiting 8
37 - Great Smiting 9
39 - Great Smiting 10

Legendary Feats
41 - Wondrous Tome of Ancient Lore - Abjuration
42 - LSA Tumble
45 - Legendary Spell Focus Abjuration
48 - Great Strength 1
51 - Great Strength 2
54 - Great Strength 3
56 - Pandect of Darkest Secrets - 
57 - Great Strength 4
60 - Great Strength 5
- The Abjuration school choice is just an suggestion. Easy to argue for Enchantment, Transmutation, or even Necromancy. The rest of the schools I think can be best covered with a GSF augment and some Draughts.
- The pandact is flexable, Blind Fight could be used to give an option in pre-epic. This build does have enough ab where disarm can work, just does not have the room to improve upon it for the extra DC and range that extra feats would help with.

Paragon Feats
63 - Paragon Spell Focus Abjuration
66 - Great Strength 6
69 - Great Strength 7
72 - Great Strength 8
75 - Great Strength 9
78 - Great Strength 10

Skills	@60	@80
Animal Empathy
Appraise
Bluff
Concentration		60
Craft Armor
Craft Trap
Craft Weapon
Disable Trap
Discipline	55	55
Heal
Hide	63	63
Intimidate
Listen
Lore
Move Silently
Open Lock
Parry
Perform
Persuade
Pick Pocket
Ride
Search
Set Trap
Spellcraft
Spot
Taunt
Tumble	60	60
Use Magic Device

- Skills at 80 are only a suggestion, could drop some concentration to place points in CA or CW to hit 40 point plateaus. 

Saves	@60	@80
Fortitude	66	81
Reflex	61	76
Will	65	80

Attack Bonus	@60	@60 Total	@80	@80 Total
BAB	14	14	14	14
Epic	10	24	10	24
Legendary	15	39	15	39
Paragon	00	39	05	44
Magic	20	59	20	64
Size	01	60	01	65
Feats	0	60	0	65
Ability	32	92	40	105
Craft Weapon	0	92	0	105
True Strike Spell	6	98	6	111

- True Strike Spell is one of main reasons for taking extend spell. 54 seconds normal, 1:48 extended. Definitely worth setting a HGX timer.
-- Auto maintenance for weapons uses the base level of spell, even if the weapon buff was extended. This can be an issue if buffing a lot of weapons in a party with flame and shock, after a rest will loose a lot of 2nd level spells to the so-called rebuff.
- Weapon feats from augments are of great value, UR focus aug will add +3 to AB.  

Armor Class	AC @60	Total	@80	Total
Base	10	10	10	10
Dodge	20	30	20	30
Deflection	18	48	20	50
Natural	20	68	20	70
Tumble	12	80	12	82
Size	01	81	01	83
Armor Skin	0
Craft Armor	0
Dexterity	03	84	09	92
Wisdom	0
Armor	26	110	23	115
Shield	16	126	16	131

- Used BUR plate and shield for @60, BUR +18 Medium and BUR Shield for @80.
- Girding would add 4 more ac.

[condude1]

Bane knight is my age-old building nemesis. I want the great smiting lines to work so badly, but I find the multiple-skill dependency really does you in. Every stat feels like it's 4 points off of where it would really shine.

Also note that you are unable to cast blackguard spells with 9 base wisdom. You need 10+spell level wisdom to memorize a BG spell. I have a level 41 HC bane knight that, unfortunately, cannot cast a single BG spell because I thought dumping wisdom was ok. It doesn't make the build unplayable, but it definitely feels bad.

I find this idea really good, but I wonder if in practice, you won't wonder "Why didn't I just play a sorc?"

[chirality]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

I had a similar set of theorized builds that also ignored all weapon/melee-boosting feats+listen. One sorc CC version, one bg (and a monk splash option as well). Was trying a couple diff subs (initially was a pre-BUR -HC- project). In my case, I purchased more spell foci feats rather than smiting. I hadn't even considered smiting as an option--still thinking inside the box. With smite performance comparable to smiting lashes that have, as you mention, seen use in limbo, this build would offer that damage as a perk.

Offtopic, but this reminds me that I always would have liked to see greater flexibility with the thrice-cursed armor/concept, such as offering the option to toggle between other BK schools, instead of only having evo. (Of course, I'd prefer a world where there was a different armor for each school--better yet, also varying light and medium options, even a robe as well possible for a monk splash--but that seems less practical and realistic). It's a shame that this item is both so "powerful" build-theory-wise as well as so limiting and ramrod-straight. Oh, well.

May 12, 2022 21:00:33 GMT condude1 said:

Also note that you are unable to cast blackguard spells with 9 base wisdom. You need 10+spell level wisdom to memorize a BG spell.

He does mention that bg spells aren't usable until x1.

May 12, 2022 21:00:33 GMT condude1 said:

I find this idea really good, but I wonder if in practice, you won't wonder "Why didn't I just play a sorc?"

Yeah, that's pretty much the thought process I ended up having whenever I would set out to roll my concept of this no-weapon-feat idea thing. That said, it would certainly be interesting to test on a x2/80 reinc if you had the gear already laid out and a kit ready to go. Ultimately, it would probably be both fun/"rewarding" and frustrating, in the way that any "playable" weird, unorthodox hybrid build tends to feel.

[tomaan]

The concept is it is a high DC caster that uses spells first, then uses a melee weapon to finish things off.

I had a lot of trouble getting decent damage output with a sword-n-board bane knight. So much, in fact, that I stopped trying and either went pure melee (two-handed) or pure caster (using a staff).

I understand the logic of taking great smiting, but if my math is correct (and it may not be), the difference between base str of 74 vs 70 is +1 dc (9th level spells) +1 spell pen (68 vs. 67) - since smite only works on lower ACs anyway, seems like you may be better served using those 4 feats on a spell foci or weapons feats.

[desocupado]

My notes and the following spells marked for a few schools.

Enchant - Blindness/Deafness - antipathy - GMW - Mind Fog - Rebuke
Evocation - Bigby's Forceful Hand - Bigby's Grasping Hand - Bigby's Clenched Fist - Bigby's Crushing Hand
Divination - Power Word stun - PWK kill - Premonition - feeblemind
Abjuration - Mage Armor, Energy immunity - Great Dispel - Banishment

[desocupado]

May 14, 2022 18:12:12 GMT tomaan said:

I had a lot of trouble getting decent damage output with a sword-n-board bane knight. So much, in fact, that I stopped trying and either went pure melee (two-handed) or pure caster (using a staff).

It seems pretty chill to always rest wielding a staff so you can spam level 789 spells. The better spells among evocation and enchantment. And maybe power words.

[boroie]

I must have made about 10 different bane knights. I love the idea of the class and it keeps dragging me back in thinking that I can make it work with *this* race or *this* class combination or *this* piece of uber random eq, but it keeps disappointing me. AFAIK, Yune made a success of a tank BK in Limbo with Alu Fiend but thats about it. For other races it is just too tight for feats and skills to get what you want out of it. I still harbor ambitions of evo/abj spec tank bk that can strip and grab alienists, and fist amorphions. Maybe someday. 

[chirality]

well, maybe standards for disappointment are high enough that bk isn't worth a slot in your parties. it probably also depends on how much of a gap you have between being impressed and being disappointed. bk is not likely to truly impress, but with all the extra juice provided by gameplay updates and x2 L80 XR, a properly-built/geared one shouldn't disappoint, given that it has a place in a given party. for example, if it's not being played to cast spells that increase run efficiency, it's basically just another melee dps delivery device that either is a 1her with nice buffs and tensers and is outclassed by 2hers/dwers, or it's a 2her with nice buffs and tensers that is still a quasiclass and inherently not as purely damage-optimal as whatever options are dominant in the meta. so it will likely disappoint if the hope is to have something better than other choices, but it shouldn't disappoint if the hope is to have a solid unit that can do a couple cool things for the zones it's specced out to play in (in other words, kind of like a sorc). i think disappointment is built into the class by default, so tempering expectations is kind of required. if the Str SP calc gets fixed, that would help, but so far it's better than it's ever been and it's still mediocre at best--but then again, mediocre shouldn't impress but shouldn't disappoint, either.

as for build experimenting...maybe overthinking it, or trying too hard to make an exotic "special" build but playing it in runs where it isn't as successful, rather than a more traditional concept? for example, OP likely theorized this build specifically for limbo. playing an limbo sorc in thids or tia or than isn't going to be very impressive. following the weap buff and bonus attack changes, bk get a nice upwards bump in tierlist. building a classic orthodox style concept which does a solid job of the "bk niche" works fine, else you can go for something like OP which is exotic and "special" but is doing that on purpose to stretch some boundaries and see what shaped pieces can fit into what shaped holes. L80 XR snb shaped piece will fit well into the classic hole, which is really just the same as saying it's not a top-tier build but is very solid and does more damage now relative to other builds than previous metas, and at least updated spell list also makes the quasi a bit better than before. on the other hand, build such as OP is a funny-shaped piece that might fit well into a funny-shaped hole. if

alu-fiend bk? hmmm...did you mean a different sub? also, what is a "tank BK"? is that as opposed to a glassy 2her one?

[boroie]

May 16, 2022 18:14:40 GMT chirality said:

alu-fiend bk? hmmm...did you mean a different sub? also, what is a "tank BK"? is that as opposed to a glassy 2her one?

Nope, definitely meant alu fiend. It has great bonus feats, just ignore rapier wit and go str route. Tensers, weapon spec and self buffs is juicy enough. 
Tank BK = something designed to hit things, like a melee bfm. Sure you can cast some stuff but you primarily selfbuff instead of casting offensively. Having that plus reliable banish or dispels/grabs would be potentially useful, situation dependent. 

[Deleted]

Alu fiend BK is god mode with CL cheese.

[yune]

My BK is Sorc 12 BG 23 WM 5 Alu-fiend. The 2 extra APR makes up for not 2-handing and more, plus it's a WM and has weapon spec and self-buffs fire electric cold divine. 5 dice cold requires an undead shape shifter to buff your CL by 3 with baelnorn unless there's some way to get access to energy drain I missed. Scrolls don't give the CL buff. Or spell pen arti, but then you lose str arti, not worth it. Doesn't cast any offensive spells at all. Damage output is very high, downside for limbo is locked to piercing.

[Yojimbo]

This build topic makes me want to revisit my idea for a BK that was more spell focused than most at the time I put it to paper. It went for Abj & Div and bumping STR for DC & SP. Is the wiki accurate on the QC? I guess I can check up on it in the forums and in game too.

[drunkenboastor]

May 17, 2022 10:52:34 GMT yune said:

My BK is Sorc 12 BG 23 WM 5 Alu-fiend. The 2 extra APR makes up for not 2-handing and more, plus it's a WM and has weapon spec and self-buffs fire electric cold divine. 5 dice cold requires an undead shape shifter to buff your CL by 3 with baelnorn unless there's some way to get access to energy drain I missed. Scrolls don't give the CL buff. Or spell pen arti, but then you lose str arti, not worth it. Doesn't cast any offensive spells at all. Damage output is very high, downside for limbo is locked to piercing.

Netherese Power Orb x2 and a Blackguard caster level ego, for the extra 3 caster levels.

[tomaan]

May 16, 2022 18:14:40 GMT chirality said:

well, maybe standards for disappointment are high enough that bk isn't worth a slot in your parties. it probably also depends on how much of a gap you have between being impressed and being disappointed. bk is not likely to truly impress, but with all the extra juice provided by gameplay updates and x2 L80 XR, a properly-built/geared one shouldn't disappoint, given that it has a place in a given party. for example, if it's not being played to cast spells that increase run efficiency, it's basically just another melee dps delivery device that either is a 1her with nice buffs and tensers and is outclassed by 2hers/dwers, or it's a 2her with nice buffs and tensers that is still a quasiclass and inherently not as purely damage-optimal as whatever options are dominant in the meta. so it will likely disappoint if the hope is to have something better than other choices, but it shouldn't disappoint if the hope is to have a solid unit that can do a couple cool things for the zones it's specced out to play in (in other words, kind of like a sorc). i think disappointment is built into the class by default, so tempering expectations is kind of required. if the Str SP calc gets fixed, that would help, but so far it's better than it's ever been and it's still mediocre at best--but then again, mediocre shouldn't impress but shouldn't disappoint, either.

as for build experimenting...maybe overthinking it, or trying too hard to make an exotic "special" build but playing it in runs where it isn't as successful, rather than a more traditional concept? for example, OP likely theorized this build specifically for limbo. playing an limbo sorc in thids or tia or than isn't going to be very impressive. following the weap buff and bonus attack changes, bk get a nice upwards bump in tierlist. building a classic orthodox style concept which does a solid job of the "bk niche" works fine, else you can go for something like OP which is exotic and "special" but is doing that on purpose to stretch some boundaries and see what shaped pieces can fit into what shaped holes. L80 XR snb shaped piece will fit well into the classic hole, which is really just the same as saying it's not a top-tier build but is very solid and does more damage now relative to other builds than previous metas, and at least updated spell list also makes the quasi a bit better than before. on the other hand, build such as OP is a funny-shaped piece that might fit well into a funny-shaped hole.

dude, what part of

I would also stress that this would not be a leveling build, Hells (along with Ely, Uro, Limbo 1) would be torture with it's low dexterity, but I do think it could work well in a number of places as a specialized build.

did you not understand? Sorry to be so pissy about it (maybe there's a language barrier?) but it's in the third sentence! This clearly a specialized build and the OP is clearly looking for feedback - you seem to have missed (or ignored) the entire purpose of the post: to create an effective, specialized build.

I think you're stuck in the "optimization" pigeon hole which is very common among RPGs. If you really don't understand why people create builds like this, ask yourself this question: what do you do after you've already played the "best" archetypes 2 or 3 times each?

[chirality]

what's your deal, kid

i was obviously responding to boroie

you might be the one that ignored or missed the entire purpose of a post

try reading again and see if it clicks this time