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Post by thomascovenant on Jul 26, 2022 1:29:45 GMT
For pyramid this is now possible to solo it but i think this could be very nice to also be albe to also solo Thid run
could it be ?
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Post by desocupado on Jul 26, 2022 12:02:37 GMT
It would make sense. As it would for not to have to consume hellstone to start an Avernus run.
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Post by chirality on Jul 26, 2022 16:00:19 GMT
I would like to see levers in thids and tia both be sticky for long enough to make the runs solo-able.
The hellstone suggestion doesn't seem to have any relevance for the overall topic of pyramid, thids, or avernus having levers changed to allow soloing.
Also, I'm not sure what you mean. Should the hellstone still be consumed to complete the run, just not at the start? Or are you saying it should no longer be consumed at all?
The former is problematic and unlikely to happen. Actually, thids mindstill was originally not consumed to open the run, but this was changed to prevent people from starting the run, despawning and/or only proceeding to loot valuable items, with zero cost and with the collateral damage of leaving the run not only broken and incompletable (due to missing keys) but also missing desirable setloot for the rest of the reset.
Although the issue of valuable setloot being yanked halfway through the run isn't a problem for tia (since the desirable setloot drops from the boss anyway), this would still leave the run open to being started, only partially completed, and then left broken (with missing or despawned matrices/minibosses). I don't see any true benefit to be gained for this added concern, other than of course potentially saving a "wasted" hellstone from a partywipe (seems laughable, when was the last time a tia run failed?) or a broken portal activation (unfortunate indeed, but pay attention and this is easily prevantable).
The latter would be a puzzling request. I don't really see what impact this would have, unless the idea is to change dustbone and thids as well to no longer drop/require keys. That might not be a bad idea, I guess, but the use and consumption of these keys isn't really a big problem, and several other runs require key farming, so changing this precedent would be a big shift. I suppose the hope is to abolish the system of farming keys to unlock runs entirely? I see this as a tough sell to Funky. If you could provide some data or details to support such a change, it would probably help.
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Post by boroie on Jul 26, 2022 16:08:43 GMT
The latter would be a puzzling request. I don't really see what impact this would have, unless the idea is to change dustbone and thids as well to no longer drop/require keys. That might not be a bad idea, I guess, but the use and consumption of these keys isn't really a big problem, and several other runs require key farming, so changing this precedent would be a big shift. I suppose the hope is to abolish the system of farming keys to unlock runs entirely? I see this as a tough sell to Funky. If you could provide some data or details to support such a change, it would probably help. Would it be part of the overall conversation about grind? In the worst case scenario - to get a toon on the route to getting a demi, you need to desert (runes) -> dustbone (mindstill) -> thids (hellstone) -> Tia This is the same after successfully defeating Asmo and going back for another cycle. I wouldnt mind the Avernus pillars being slowed down at least, I nearly gave myself RSI queueing up enough clicks there the last time  |
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Post by thomascovenant on Jul 27, 2022 0:08:06 GMT
As for the hell's stone no longer being consumed, as Chirality says, more details are needed on the idea.
Hell's stones unlike many years ago, it is no longer very difficult to get your hands on them since the beginning of the multibox and also the paragons levels, whereas before this we were always several different players for one Thid party run, whereas now it is possible to do a thid run in a party of two and even those who have multiple players can do a thid run alone with their bots. So it's not too difficult to accumulate HS in our bankchests.
As for the Mindstills except for the recent newbies, I don't think there's a single player who doesn't have at least one toon capable of solo DB run to get some.
When I mention being able to make a change for solo Thid run as it is now possible for Pyramid run, it's because unlike those who play in multi, it would be nice if those who really solo can also have the opportunity to farm HS, Beakers as well as Runes of Returns.
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Post by jelricle on Jul 27, 2022 16:14:49 GMT
Personally, I like the story aspect of Vashyk leading to the mind flayers, leading to the hells and limbo. (With the ssisthrak branching in from the side) so I would vote to keep it. Ditto hive leading to abyss.
Additionally, there is something to be said about appreciating something more if you have to work at it.
Still, all things in moderation. You don’t want the work to be insurmountable. Still, as others have said, those runs can be solo’ed by farmers, except Thids. Imho, needing multiple toons is the only step that makes the process too onerous.
BTW, I would add Dis to the list of maps that need longer delays on levers. Dunno if I could solo Dis, yet, but I would love for it to at least be a possibility (I did get pretty far in Stygia’s ice palace, yesterday; in fact, I was only taken down because I did not see the ice fiends due to camera angle . . . And due to a natural “1”. :_( )
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Post by witlak on Jul 27, 2022 18:18:22 GMT
You did a "real" solo run in Stygia? You are the greatest hero in HG.
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Post by witlak on Jul 27, 2022 18:23:58 GMT
Back to topic: I created my 2nd account just for the reason to solo pyramid. It would be fair for the players that dont want to box to change the lever areas that they can solo these areas too.
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Post by jelricle on Jul 27, 2022 18:30:17 GMT
You did a "real" solo run in Stygia? You are the greatest hero in HG. Ha! Definitely not real solo. I _started_ just outside the ice palace (thanks to Prep bringing me to the shop) but I got pretty far and died to a stupid mistake, so I am interested to see how far I could go for real (but would prefer to start this experiment on the easier levels) Heh. my painful "Get all immunities for KB, then lay umpty-three traps, then draw mobs slowly, then clean up survivors" solo play style would drive any real players to distraction! Back to topic: I created my 2nd account just for the reason to solo pyramid. It would be fair for the players that dont want to box to change the lever areas that they can solo these areas too. Pyramid levers _rock_, now that there is a delay!!!! |
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Post by desocupado on Jul 27, 2022 22:59:21 GMT
So if a run can be soloed, hence it isn't challenge, that would be a reason for it to be mandatory? Does it make sense to force people to repeat a non-challenging run?
For the record I do agree with making the lever "puzzle" not require multiple characters.
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Post by jelricle on Jul 28, 2022 0:08:41 GMT
So if a run can be soloed, hence it isn't challenge, that would be a reason for it to be mandatory? Does it make sense to force people to repeat a non-challenging run? For the record I do agree with making the lever "puzzle" not require multiple characters. It is definitely a challenge solo! Particularly if shackled. Heh, this is all reminiscent of an old rogue-like game called "Angband." One of the devs (I think it was Harrison) got tired of all the requests for changes to let people get ahead faster, so he programmed in "hit ctrl-W and you win" (or some quick-key) :-D |
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Post by chirality on Jul 28, 2022 3:22:17 GMT
So if a run can be soloed, hence it isn't challenge, that would be a reason for it to be mandatory? Mmm. I have a couple thoughts here: First, just a note that when we discuss "solo" in this topic, we have to consider both meanings: a) one player and one character b) one player and X<=10 characters I assume you use the term "soloed" here to mean truly one character? For a single player and her single account/single toon, we would like some restrictions to be removed, to enable them to do the same things as a single player and multiple toons. However, when we address balance from a difficulty and grind perspective, then we are also imagining the practical reality of one player multiboxing. Second, I'm not sure that I agree with your premise. Is whether or not something can be soloed a useful indicator for how challenging it is? I'm not sure that really holds true, either in "naive" design concept for HG zones nor for actual daily life in multiboxfest9000. Or, perhaps we need to define challenge more clearly to debate it. I think that "difficulty" can appear in a few types. As for solo-ability being used as a yardstick to measure whether something is a challenge, this is not one-dimensional. Runs can be both challenging and solo-able, I think. Perhaps for this type of game, the challenge is often more one of grind/slog than "skill" as you pointed out recently. Nonetheless, I don't think that it necessarily follows that if a run is soloed, it isn't a challenge. Of course, we already know that just because a run can't be soloed, it is a challenge--hence the lever requirement feeling artificial and "unfair" in the multiboxing era). Does it make sense to force people to repeat a non-challenging run? This is definitely not easy to answer. Actually, unless we pose the question with a very precise definition of "challenge," I would doubt any two players would even give the same answer, even those that see eye-to-eye on almost everything else. I think most people would probably agree that a certain amount of repetition is either acceptable by design or at least not too distasteful in tolerable amounts. Most people probably have different opinions on how much is tolerable, but I wouldn't expect most HG players to be completely opposed to it, because after all, it's pretty much a pillar concept of the style of game and the grind-y nature of HG. I think everyone would probably agree that too much is intolerable, and acceptable only because we enjoy the game anyway. Again, the amount that we find intolerable varies widely, depending on who you ask. I think some players probably think that a certain amount of repetition isn't only acceptable, but actually a good thing. This is probably not a very popular opinion in general (I would imagine most HGers fall into the "tolerate it because it's part of the game" camp) but I think even those that hate repetition also have times that they do enjoy repeating non-challenging content. Perhaps not feeling like being forced to, and perhaps not enjoying it every time they do it, but I think everyone has, at least once, enjoyed doing some dumb easy lowbie crap for the 2nd or 5th or 100th time, even if the enjoyment was mainly nostalgia. This single question is a huge thread because it's obviously one of the most important things that players (and devs) feel strongly about and disagree on in a million ways. [Heh, this is all reminiscent of an old rogue-like game called "Angband." One of the devs (I think it was Harrison) got tired of all the requests for changes to let people get ahead faster, so he programmed in "hit ctrl-W and you win" (or some quick-key) :-D Harris, I think. Yeah, Angband is a legendary classic. Actually, the old-school roguelikes and MUDs are something that HG pays homage to in many ways (not least of which, an attempt to create at least some sort of old-school grind/accomplishment vibe and ruleset). For example, Acaos used to run a MUD; hive maps have a server message that is a not-so-subtle reference to Colossal Cave Adventure. On that note, that ancestry is exactly a source of conflict about grinding, challenge, time investment, and other design concepts. HG is quite a joke of a grind compared to some games (not just ancient text/ascii RPGs--even graphical ones, like everquest), but it is a huge grind compared to many others. Anyway, it's funny that you mention this, because I think the sense that many players and staff get when reading some suggestions or complaints immediately brings the "ctrl W to win" story to mind. |
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Post by thomascovenant on Jul 28, 2022 7:48:31 GMT
Forgot to also say this should be also good to be able to solo LOTH run
Atm only a player who can realy solo Loth need to be a wizz or a sorc, all other class cannot.
And when i say solo in my way this mean only one toon.
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Post by desocupado on Jul 28, 2022 12:49:04 GMT
I think the problem is scope. Thids is a very well designed run/area - interesting thrmatic enemies even if a bit on the long side.
Facing it the first few times is fun. Feeling how different builds manage there is fun. Being dragged there isn't. Wasting time there when you should be doing higher level content isnt.
Making a demigod character repeat thids makes no sense.
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Post by jelricle on Jul 28, 2022 13:27:46 GMT
. . . [Heh, this is all reminiscent of an old rogue-like game called "Angband." One of the devs (I think it was Harrison) got tired of all the requests for changes to let people get ahead faster, so he programmed in "hit ctrl-W and you win" (or some quick-key) :-D Harris, I think. Yeah, Angband is a legendary classic. Actually, the old-school roguelikes and MUDs are something that HG pays homage to in many ways (not least of which, an attempt to create at least some sort of old-school grind/accomplishment vibe and ruleset). For example, Acaos used to run a MUD; hive maps have a server message that is a not-so-subtle reference to Colossal Cave Adventure. On that note, that ancestry is exactly a source of conflict about grinding, challenge, time investment, and other design concepts. HG is quite a joke of a grind compared to some games (not just ancient text/ascii RPGs--even graphical ones, like everquest), but it is a huge grind compared to many others. Anyway, it's funny that you mention this, because I think the sense that many players and staff get when reading some suggestions or complaints immediately brings the "ctrl W to win" story to mind. Ha! right. Ben Harris. Man that takes me back. I am guessing that Zelda inspired the final Pyramid map? :-) Gotta say, having starving vampires in Gaobin become full fledged vampires, if they drink enough, was Nethack level TDTTOE! Regarding ctrl-w (or whatever the command was) Yeah, it is a balance. I honestly do try to keep my thoughts and suggestions to 2 types: 1) Make it feasible for a non-boxer to play solo 2) Add flavor for my own personal play style (Access to more forms! Even if they don't help. I like running around the cemetery as a zombie!) Of course, ymmv (yomv, too! :-D ) |
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