woki pointed out that this was already slated to be changed to flat 2 mins so all my blabber about duration is dumb. I totally forgot that the thread I linked and was discussing was
after Funky posted about the change. My apologies all around.
As a recap, the duration is currently based on the formula given in the class doc, but already decided and awaiting the update to go to flat 2 mins.
Therefore, data to show that 2 minutes is not enough could help convince Funky/team to consider a buff. If the effort is successful, then in theory it would be fine since the slated change hasn't been implemented yet anyway.
Based on the thread I quote from below, it doesn't seem like the arguments about 2 mins being too short were convincing back then. Maybe new data or information would change that.
I always thought the new HS buff duration was an honest mistake, typo. It should really be ((chamod + dexmod)/2) TURNS, not rounds.
Are you sure about that?
Turns might be juuuust a
bit much, no? That would translate into a yuugue buff--even a baby str divtank with sub-40 cha/dex would have 3 uses of a ~12 minute duration (plus free boots).
Anyway, I also wondered if there was an honest mistake or typo. I think the halved
combined mods does seem pretty harsh. Without that, the duration for str builds would be arguably "reasonable" (see my crossed-out math in post above). Actually, given 3 uses of 2.5 minutes, that
probably actually would be an overall buff package vs old 2x5 mins, after accounting for free boot slot. Considering we dealt with funny formulas like 9/10 of an ability score to DC, I would argue that an uglier calculation but one more finely-tuned could be in order.
(Again, I'd also like to see str somehow respected as well so the class doesn't "feel" like a) too close to PDK as pointed out earlier and b) so the class doesn't "feel" like only catering to dex/cha builds--and the formula also makes balancing difficult)
Not even the newly freed boot slot is worth such nerf.
Well, we know this was all done so sg could wear vestige boots, she said so herself!
Also, damn h-g is too op as we all know, so if not for that it'd be a bit sexier, eh
A very dedicated HS splashed build will have duration of 3x 20 rounds by the end of the game, let's say a light armor wearing smiter (bear with me), 48 dex, 52 cha. 6 minutes, that is pathetic.[/quote]
Well, that is kind of my point about the dex/cha thing. It makes a classic str build with high dex/cha offstats look like pathetic duration, but on the other hand rewards a high dex or cha build with high str offstat much more. For example, my old non-smiting high-cha 2h bg hs with 74 cha and 44 dex would have gotten buffed, in my opinion: halved combined mods of 24.5, let's say round down to 24, just under 2.5 mins 3x per rest, plus vestige boots (or even breach boots before then would be a massive upgrade on ring flex considering). In total time, 10 mins
is superior to 7.5 mins, but I would argue that a 3rd use would be a massive improvement: a large % of the bufftime was often wasted, as we all know (and complained about for years, let's not forget).
As for the boots, let's just say that probably the best bur tank sub in the game--and one perfect for/common for hs builds--(h-g) can ignore vestige but still gain breach boots; meanwhile pharlan (still one of the best subs in the game and perfect for/common for another subset of hs divtanks) can get vestige boots so h-g no longer laughs from their lofty stoneimm tower. Of course this kind of valuation is predicated on burs, not xrs, but then again, as I said above, maybe the problem is we're still insisting on viewing hs as "competitive top-tier" for absolute end-game, without properly giving some credit for a niche that peaks in pre-80 XR zomgconqueror status?
Annnnyway: sure, that dumb build is an edge case and even arguing it does seem like trying too hard. My point is mainly:
a) I agree that perhaps the formula could be tweaked to be a bit more forgiving
b) We should avoid retrospective cognitive bias in our valuation of how good hs was before (quite sick, yes, but there were downsides and hs did largely fall out of favor for a reason even before nerf--and those who kept it were mostly those who specifically could benefit from 5min intervals of constant bashing hp sponges--a scenario only some players took full advantage of)
c) Maybe we simply need to recognize/accept that the new formula brings a shift in the target builds can present an advantage vs those that don't (as pointed out earlier, of course, existence of pdk and the cha-mated similarity makes this troubling)
Every other tank who uses a tenser's-like effect (battle cleric, storm lord, staffy) gets at minimum 11 minutes PER SPELL SLOT. And doesn't even have to sacrifice 5 splash levels, 2 feats (1 of which is always useless), and handful of skills. The disparity is more than obvious.
Eh. I don't think that arguing a 5-level splash should be
competitive in buff duration/consistency, let alone
equivalent to a quasiclass that is completely based on having that tenser-like buff at all times to even be a proper tank is a great premise to start the comparison with. As for the wasted feats, true. Skills as well (it is annoying). Then again, HS certainly doesn't have a monopoly in this department, and two feats is still far more manageable than either wm or than a base class (ftr/pal/mnk/bg) that restricts or punishes racial viability due to multiclass pen.
It's true, though, that it does hurt, but I'd argue so does going blk or divm on anything that doesn't take OC/DC (1 feat vs 2, but even still). What makes it worse of course is again the comparison vs hs' new competitor pdk which is still 1 less feat and far less skillpoints for a clearly-superior-in-most-cases (possible exception of some 2her as only tank in party?) 5-level splash (bug aside).
Turns might be juuuust a bit much, no? That would translate into a yuugue buff--even a baby str divtank with sub-40 cha/dex would have 3 uses of a ~12 minute duration (plus free boots).
