Is there documentation on UMD?

[jelricle]

What does the UMD text mean? 

It often show up as three numbers, separated by "/". 

• Do those represent Class Emulation/Race Emulation/Alignment Emulation?
• What if there is both race and alignment limitations that need to be overcome?  Is it +15?

Is there anything specific to HG?

• Can it overcome limitations that were randomly added in HG?
• Can it overcome tag requirements? Or level requirements?
• Can you overcome the limitations of items worth more than 9MM?

[Yojimbo]

I don't believe it can override limits like UR gear being L50+ or tag limits beyond that it is hard to say.

[simpetar]

Yes, the numbers represent UMD needed to overcome class / race / alignment restrictions. Only the highest applies iirc, they are not cumulative.

Randomly added restrictions, i.e. added by randomization can be overcome by UMD, if high enough. However, it is far more elegant to fix the item by forging it at Ixion's or use Unfettered Usage book.

Scripted HG restrictions can never be overcome by UMD, unless the item specifically allows it. For example, this shield can be used only by LG characters with no assassin, barb, bard, or BG levels and there is no amount of UMD that will allow to ignore these restrictions. Other items will say in their description how much base UMD you need to equip them despite not meeting the other requirement (like this one for instance).

Good question, but I believe that most builds that have / can afford UMD do that with a specific item they want to use full time or at least for switch. These items are typically the lvl 40 cleric dispel hat, crit ring, or the oc/dc unarmed stick (side effects of this approach are ability to use scrolls, and immunity to gremlin jinx). It's not like any serious build is going to invest into UMD just in case they find a nice randomized item with restriction; skill points are far more precious resource than gold / crafting mats.

[Yojimbo]

Typically the only classes you see with more skill points than they know what to do with are Rogues (higher than average base int + more points per level) and Wizards (high int). This ties to your question about appraise you find it mostly invested in on Wizards, Rogues, or Bards IIRC. Wizards and Rogues just get so many points to spend compared to most and IIRC Bards can get best treasure scent from max appraise allowing them to "pop" better loot.

[simpetar]

Aug 31, 2022 14:20:20 GMT Yojimbo said:

Wizards and Rogues just get so many points to spend compared to most and IIRC Bards can get best treasure scent from max appraise allowing them to "pop" better loot.

I don't believe Appraise or UMD have anything to do with treasure scent. The bard spell is tied to Lore, and quite frankly it's not a recommended spell (lvl 3 is far too tight on bards, both in selection and slots; remember, TS needs to be cast every time you pop a loot spot) and Lore isn't a recommended bard skill (if you can take it, your int is too high at the cost of another stat, and if you wanna do damage on bard, just spam Mass Haste). Rogue treasure scent comes exclusively from rogue levels.

[jelricle]

Hmmmm, maybe having appraise impact loot would cause it to be used more? Does it impact ixion’s prices or the Stygian shop’s prices at all?

[chirality]

highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/26594/appraise-skill

[jelricle]

:-D

I tend to repeat myself in my old age.

I still stand by what I say, though. People do not seem to invest in appraise, except for their homebody toons. I think we might get more people to use it if it impacted loot quality.

[chirality]

Try playing a toon that's the "designated banker" on a standard high-demi, full-party hell+ run and see for yourself how enjoyable it is for you alone to have something that impacts loot quality.

That'd be for a scenario in which the impact to the loot quality is meaningful and appreciable--enough so that the impact makes the toon with max appraise the only one people want opening containers.

On the other hand, if the bonus from appraise doesn't feel or seem demonstrably very impactful (say, less than or equal to current TS %) people would only bother with it in exactly the same wiz / rog builds that they already take it now.

Bard really has a difficult time fitting Lore for castable TS, because they already want so many skills--comparable to rogue's demand--yet have far fewer base skill points to use. In 3e PnP, bard actually got 6 base pts, representing something of a step between the general base-4 classes and rogues at 8, but for some reason Bioware dropped it to 4, which hurts, on top of manufacting a brand-new skill (Parry) from thin air that HG rather requires most classes to take (although to be fair, there's not multiple Knowledge skills, but even then, bardic knowledge exists specifically to bypass that cumbersome demand anyway). Most bards are gnomes, which of course translates into roughly a +1/level bonus skill point versus most other classes, including rogues, but even still...I digress.

Of course, the fact that TS requires casting is really what makes it obnoxious to both deploy and watch being deployed, but nonetheless, the bottom line is that most classes simply can't afford either Appraise, nor should bard be dropping an entire stack of points into Lore.

Anyway, I can see how you might find it an interesting concept to promote Appraise to get more people to use it on more toons, but I think you should fully consider the consequences of making another "required" skill when most classes/builds/toons already struggle to fit in everything they "need" or want. As well, I would note that it's interesting how you are simultaneously desiring more and higher skill bonuses from motes because your gear isn't enough to get your skills where you want, while at the same time asking to force another new needed skill into the build process (which, as I said above, would essentially translate to simply a designated banker of the class that already comfortably affords Appraise).

Finally, I don't see any issue with appraise "not" being "used" or invested in for "most toons." I think HG already has done a great job of incentivizing most skills, and there's no question that skill points are precious, powerful, and an important aspect of building. I don't see anything wrong with a few skills such as Appraise or Heal to be largely the specialist domain of certain classes. I understand your goal is likely to improve balance by making things more interesting, but I think this is kind of a manufactured issue, and again, one that does seem to be quite at odds with your wish for higher skill bonuses on motes because it's hard enough already to max skills for most classes with innate+gear alone (which of course plays into overall balance, with why bard, prayer, GR, etc are so valuable).

[jelricle]

Heh, I actually like being designated banker! :-D

I don't think unused aspects of the game are an "issue", per se. The game is great, and it will be ages before I have sucked the marrow out of even my one present class, if ever.
I guess I simply view it as a bonus, when more aspects of the game are able to draw people to use them. I have my tunnel view on my character and class, but, in groups, I get to enjoy other aspects.
Kinda like being at a meal where I am savoring my chicken gumbo while a firend across the table is having a po' boy. Even if I don't have a bite, I can still enjoy the experience of their meal vicariously, to an extent.

[chirality]

You're certainly entitled to your own opinion and you're more than welcome to share it. I don't mean to put you on the defensive any more than strictly necessary ("defend your ideas" and all that).

As discussed in the other thread and elsewhere, Appraise is far from unused (not sure if you that's what you meant, but when I read "unused aspect" in the context my reaction is to be "defensive" myself). In fact, I think Appraise is about as useful as it "deserves" in terms of value and "balance." Gold is no inconsequential matter and some of the costs that Appraise helps reduce are quite significant. As I touched on in the other thread, there are a few layers of detail involved in the "analysis of how important gold and Appraise are" discussion, and much like any other game, the dynamics of wealth change dramatically for players as they acquire more of it.

I think Appraise "scales" fairly well across a player's career, from trying to farm a small bankroll for merchant supplement and market purchases, all the way to drooling over multi-billion expenses such as augshop duds and demishop tools. If you're stuck on the fact that it's not demanded of every toon, but only "worth" taking on some toons, again, I would say that this is just min/maxing, and just as there's not much point in taking Heal if you don't have spells that scale off of it, that's no different than several other skills. I don't think that Heal, Spellcraft, Lore, or Persuade (to name a few that come to mind) should be made "valuable" and conflict with existing minmax decisions for all/any toons. Honestly, Int and skillpoints are very demanding and the amount of effort and build decisions required on this game for skills is already very high.

My position probably comes off as "the game has plenty of cool things to explore and enjoy, so stop with new ideas!" However, it's more about just trying to point out things that might not be obvious or that perhaps you hadn't considered. In either case, it's more to "challenge" ideas and evaluate the response, than it is to shut you down.

As an afterthought, I'm not sure what the rationale is for Appraise improving loot quality, anyway. It already does exactly what you'd expect it to do: improve buy/sell prices with merchants through the "haggling" aspect, and allow gems to be identified through the "jeweler" aspect. What is the explanation you'd propose for why loot quality itself should scale with a toon's Appraise? Would it be an average of the party's entire Appraise? Just the toon popping the loot? The highest or lowest of any toon present in the party? On the map? In party and on map when the loot is popped? Should it improve odds of any % loot table? Artifacts? Should it make randomization slotmachine better? Get more gold out of goldpiles? Impact autosell? These are some of the questions that should probably be addressed when considering the implementation of such an idea.

[jelricle]

I thought unappraised gem identification was via the “lore” skill. Is there another type of gem identification? I’ll have to jump back on and test.

Oooo, having autosell impacted by appraise is a great idea! Sure, the hat would just go to the toon with highest appraisal at the start of the run, but it would definitely give appraise a bump, I think.

I have been of the impression, from chats and posted builds, that appraise is only invested (no pun intended) for homebody toons (and int rogues who simply have more skill points than they know what to do with). Most adventuring builds seem to skip it.

[Yojimbo]

Triggering a check or something from autosell isn't bad though if you make it based on one toon it just means more pass the hat musical chairs of sort and doesn't really improve or expand its utility. I don't think there will be enough ways to expand it without breaking something else I would say at best adding it to autosell will just expand the use for the select few who fit it in. Using a party average will keep it useful for those bankers toons who take it but eliminate the "need" to meta it with passing the hat.

[chirality]

Part of HG's charm is that reincarnation allows builds to be crafted for different priorities at different points in a toon's lifecycle. This means that, for example, and as was mentioned previously, Appraise could be taken or skipped depending on how useful it is for "adventuring" or being a "homebody" at a given career milestone/intended use case.

I don't understand this take. It seems like you're saying that a build ingredient only used on "homebody" toons and skipped on "adventuring" builds is something broken in need of fixing. I just don't follow it. This is NWN, and there's scroll scribing, item crafting, forging, buying/selling, and other non-combat skills, feats, and build choices. Why should a skill that in fact is entirely devoted to non-combat application (and which has a fine niche with return on investment about as much as one could desire) be changed to have a combat application? Appraise may as well have been hardcoded to only work only out of combat, like other things that don't function in combat, or even to work only in No PvP areas like other non-combat features, and it would still function exactly as it does now. We could imagine changing scribing to work in combat and encourage sorcs and clerics to take the scribe scroll feat because it's only chosen on homebody toons instead of adventuring builds, but if it has influence on something grindable like loot or xp gain, it'd certainly introduce an awkward new set of choices. (Also, if the combination of rogue/bard TS with Appraise TS could produce impressive % yields, this would just become another "required" thing--I'll return to this below)

That said, if we look at CA/CW, there is certainly a precedent for non-combat crafting skills to be assigned a custom upgrade that directly impacts combat. The same could be said for Lore, although I think it's much easier to imagine adventuring builds taking lore to save money/hassle on IDing the loot they're farming (in some modules, being able to identify loot on the fly can be crucial so you know what to take and what to leave on the ground, for example, if there's limited inventory/banking logistical concerns, or even simply carry weight). Unlike Lore, though, we probably wouldn't expect anybody except a homebody to bother with item crafting skills. In this regard, HG providing a combat bonus for these skills does give some ground to stand on if you want to talk about Appraise having some combat use.

However, I would really lean away from manipulating loot. If anything, giving some kind of flat bonus similar to either vanilla's +spellsave from Spellcraft, or HG's +ab/ac from Cw/CA would probably be more satisfying.

Finally, historically there is usually some pushback whenever one non-zomgtopdog class (like rogue) gets their "toes stepped on" by suggestions to give new features that emulate or resemble their own precious thingies. Your idea basically sounds like you want to give rogue's innate treasure scent to anyone and everyone else. The first issue I see is "what about poor rogues" (and bards, although as I said above, I don't think bard TS has been popular in a very long time and is likely dead in the water in general now).

The second issue I see is that both rogue and bard TS scales in some way off class levels, and in particular rogues get the benefit of having it as a specialty thing. Opening up Appraise-based TS would just be another nail in the rog splash-or-non-rogue-replacing-real-rogue coffin, because it'd just be one more thing that anyone with Appraise (specifically, wizards and rog splash as I mentioned earlier) can do. That might not be the worst thing in the world, because rogue is a pretty polarizing class and the concept of HG's rogue tends to elicit a lot of aggravation, and some people would probably love nothing more than to remove all rogue-gated mechanics and remove the idea of Rogue Does This.

I see a third issue--the interplay of bard/rogue TS and Appraise TS. This would need to be carefully managed. Lastly, a fourth issue is that Appraise making loot better does give it a "combat" value for an "adventuring" toon but it's still essentially the same concept as making you richer without actually making your toon better aside from making you richer. In other words, trying to make people drop other skills for it would still just be another minmax optimization decision of what they can drop to afford better loot. This is probably too difficult to actually get right: either the loot improvement is so good that it's just a new "required" slot in the party (which people have hated since the olden days, whether it's a bard, a druid, GR, a rogue, the list goes on) and just introduces a new flavor of the month thing for us to exploit...or it's not good enough and people aren't willing to sacrifice other important skills just for a slight % increase in loot.