Cleric...further discussion

[Ironfang]

I do think it bears a little more discussion. While I understand that Funky feels the Cleric and his Implosion is too strong I would just like to hear other opinions.

My points like Ryancian is that as a 56 level toon, 54 caster levels in Cleric, a 55 Wisdom I have an Implode DC = 49

DC:49 is pretty insignaficant in the scheme of things when many MOBs have FORT saves bonuses of around...+ 49, like I stated earlier it still works ok in Mana but not much past that.

Now I could have a slightly higher DC by now if I totally focused in Wisdom but I thought I might be bit of a BattleCaster upon creation but have found that my Attack Bounus even with buffs falls short now too (28 STR buffed). I think all buffed and such in Combat log I max at about +56 AB.

No Implosion does not respect Death Magic as it should not it is not "Death Magic" as per the descriptor. Implosion has a much smaller AoE than Wail which is a similar spell, with the larger area having a lower DC isn't as bad because there are more monsters that may have a bad roll.

I am not saying that increasing Implsosion DC is the answer. More on the lines of finding a way to make the Clerics defenses a little better. My biggest beef is that I have now worked very hard with several +16 items and Epic Spells to get my AC up to 120 and still end up getting killed very quickly from melee or ranged attack damage.

Respectfully
'Fang

[schlumpy]

i have a bit of a problem with cleric changes....you can ask anyone i party with.. I may have a pretty effective offense with my cleric, but that is in part due to the way i play him. Any one who parties with brother schlumpy knows he is rezzed more often and fuges more often than just about every other charector combined...and now his offense is weekend again...even not playing in my sucidal manner, its hard to keep a caster cleric alive in the immo areas...but the trade off was being able to do some good damage to the mobs , as long as you had friendly people with lots of rezz's..the changes made are very noticeable, not just the several changes to implosion ( DC and area of effect) ..but the way a few other spells work ( or no longer work) as well.....ok im done complaining for new..hehe

[FunkySwerve]

Schlump, if you stop charging into mobs like a tank, you'll live a lot longer. ;D As for the rest, I'm sorry but it was in large part due to insanely overpowered spells. It's hard to take complaints seriously after you completed the illithids with a party of two, a cleic and a rezzer. I mean, seriously...the changes were pretty minor tweaks, many of which disadvantaged mages and not clerics.
Funky

[schlumpy]

sorry, but i watched mages walk around in the some of the hardest places while buffed and not get harmed, while i die instantly just about anywhere above drow

[mishimayukio]

I'd like to point out that I started a caster cleric twice, the first one I deleted at around level 30 because of the paladin level I took at level 2 would drop my implosion DC by 1 at level 60. I get Kyon to around level 50 or so, and then the bonus at casterlevel 50 and 60 gets removed, making my first build viable again. Could we possibly see some kind of benefit for going pure cleric return in some form or another like sorcs/wizards?

-EDIT- BTW, my first build would have had +9 to saves, +2 AC, reasonable discipline, and evasion over Kyon. I would also have the option of using robes/no shield at higher LLs to get AC in the high 110s vs a current max of 108. And at the moment I would sacrifice very little for it.

[FunkySwerve]

Clerics are currently affected by str build ac woes, unfortunately. Many of the recent gear changes help them substantially, and more will be done. Mages relying on spells for defense, however, are already at near maximum defenses, and 5 levels above area difficulty at the moment. Depending on playtest in the hells, those spells may be reduced in potency, but I expect that won't be necessary. As for gains at 60, you get added casterlevels, and penetration - which counts for alot, though that is currently a bit overshadowed by the 5-level gap between casters and top area level ratings at the moment. Another currently hidden aspect of cleric defenses is that they are largely undispellable, such as they are...
Funky

[tyranlthixis]

Personally I prefer playing a battle cleric, but I'm anti swapping alignment around at will to get crazy combos of classes that in D&D are not allowed. The cheese cleric is well ....cheesy and I won't make one. Most servers have strict rules against things like paladin/sorcerers and other oddly paired classes. I'm not saying I don't think its fun to be uber but I'm more of a traditionalist. Leave the crazy class combos to the NPC world. Anyhow the caster cleric seemed like a good alternative since you can build a high DC cleric with a traditional cleric build. That was until the recent changes to implosion.

My caster cleric has as much wisdom as leveling will allow, and was scheduled to finish all the great wisdom feats by lvl 60. I also collected the best caster equipment that would allow me to have the most high level spell slots and maxed wisdom. The build and equipment is not without its costs. A big sacrifice item for example was giving up my weapon slot for a dachy staff, which gives lots of caster benefits but totaly sucks as a melee weapon. The problem is whats a caster cleric to do with his/her level 9 spell slots now and should we expect other spells such as destruction to be gimped as well. Somehow 30 silenced earthquakes are just not satisfying or wanted or useful....and that many undeaths eternal foe would be just pointless. Before the change I had leveled my character enough that he was just starting to get good with a nice combo of adequate implosions and decent damage spells. Now he gets completely slaughtered in the desert and ssith areas.....nor is he really useful to take to those places. I'd much rather take any of my other characters. In fact I don't see any other spells that need and uber DC. High DC may help a little, but even with a crappy build spells like destruction and hammer of the gods are decent.

Anyhow I think there needs to be some consolation for the sacrifices one has to make for a maxed wisdom/maxed caster feat/caster eq only character. I know on other servers I've seen implosion turned into an area damage spell that happens to have a instant kill effect rather than a straight death spell. I'd rather see the spell returned to its former state or its DC gimped less. Fine battle clerics should have gimped implosions, but why punish the lvl 40 pure cleric who doesn't have the class flexibility to be anything other than a caster?

Tyran

[ZeroGravitySE]

PURE Clerics and Druids lack in defense!

[ryancian]

Another currently hidden aspect of cleric defenses is that they are largely undispellable, such as they are

This is all well and goos except for the fact that the buffs I have are relatively useless. It'd be nice if I had some concealment bonuses or something that soaks a legitimate amount of damage to not be dispelled but that's like saying you can't be knocked over while you're wielding a staff into battle. Great, you cant fall on your arse, but the staff isn't a good melee weapon so your predicament is useless still. I mean, a cleric at level 60 might be a offensive force to be reckoned with, with illithid gear and uber items and the sort, but what about from levels 40-56 or so where the cleric takes a dirt nap more than the mage? That to me just doesn't make sense. Either clerics need a defensive boost from levels 40-55 so that we can actually gain some exp in the desert and ssith or we need to see the reinstatement of the insane casting cleric (via Schlump) who rushes into battle and implodes everything and gets slaughtered shortly thereafter. If I'm virtually naked AC and Buff wise, I'd like to be able to implode the room if possible (Note: Sarcasm evident).

[schlumpy]

i know too that there is alot of new str based gear, but if your a casting cleric you cant use all of that stuff to up your ac since some of your items need to be dedicated to spell slot items...also, makeing up for the tiny bit less offensive power mages have ( there really isnt much of a gap at all anymore with the new effectiveness of powerword kill and some other spells) they are way more versitile with a much wider range of spells and abilities...

[lobivia]

Amen to what Ryancian said, i feel exactly the same way about my cleric (who is like lvl 45 ish) and i agree with what is generally said by people who have clerics and are complaining lol.
She just doesnt cut it compared to any arcane caster, any day...She gets OWNED in desert or ssith and her offensive abilities are not that great. Earthquake for example hits a lot less than Meteor Swarm, my implosions rarely are effective or my harms etc...thats why im gonna stop playing her....but it's ok im making a Wizard

[Ironfang]

I hope that decsions to nerf certain classes aren't based on the case of a single toon like Brother Schlumpy. Just because Schlump is able to solo Immo areas doesn't mean every Cleric is going to be able to. Many people don't make toons the same way and may have some minor flaws or a different build that doesn't stretch the engine to its limitaions.

You also have to remember if you are seeing a Cleric being sucessful with his Implosions he is probably using Prayer first. So you have to use 2 spells and be willing to stand in melee with your enemies to have a shot at success.

[FunkySwerve]

ironfang said:

I hope that decsions to nerf certain classes aren't based on the case of a single toon like Brother Schlumpy.

Of course they are. We balance maximized builds against both each other and the areas they are used in. That's the only useful way to compare them, because the reasons (if any) and means of making them non-optimal vary from character to character, AND between class to class, AND between different class combos. Let's leave commentary on the balacing process itself out of this discussion - it's neither relevant nor likely to be benefitted by experience.
Funky

[lobivia]

Also i wanna say this mod is great (and having played nwn for 3 years i really mean it) and keep up the good work guys, i know its very hard to keep everything balanced and even minor tweakings change things greatly.
My recommendations for cleric class would be :
-maybe give them a spell that soacks damage (comparable to premonition) since AC on a caster even if it helps cant be compared to the AC on a melle char (since ur gonna be flatfooted 90 percent of the time). SO even if they dont have EV thats 1 major defensive spell. Or maybe since they should have a high AC, give them a spell that either boosts their AC, or make them less affected by FF.
-maybe since it seems agreed by all clerics are weak defensively and powerfull offensively, dont nerf their main offensive spells

Here is my 2 cents

[schlumpy]

dont nerf there offense because they are weak n defense?!?!?! well , that just makes to much sense....and yes to an earlier post...i actually use 2 or 3 different spells in combo with implode to improve its effectiveness...it works, but it slows me down a bit and reduces my spells selection since i have to use up a bunch of slots for it....

Most of my grumpy posting is due to several horrific days at work....lol