Post by FunkySwerve on Oct 20, 2005 1:34:18 GMT
Whoa, slow down. You guys are assuming an awful lot, all of it wrong. I had not planned to discuss this for a bit yet, since Lengendary Levels ("LL") are a ways off yet, but I looks like I'd better, in order to stem the tide. The NWN engine lets NPCs go up to 60 levels per class in three classes. For PCs, however, the hard limit is 40. I would take one helluve hakpak to break that, and I suspect it can't be done even with a hak. Because of that, and because we don't use haks except for CEP, we have to go another route if we want to do this. As it turns out, that route has many advantages. Here's how I explained it to one of our dms earlier:
Probably the best way I can explain your earlier question is this: a 20BG/20Ass who then takes 20 lengendary levels is best thought of like this: 20BG/20Ass/20LL. If I implement my present plan, the Ass would be the selected class for the LL, since alphabetically lower.
**Inserting comment**Normally the class with the most levels is selected, is the plan, with tiebreaks going to alphabetical order***End comment***
It would control the availability of feats and skills in LLs, and probably damage dice for spells. For LL to affect anything besides feats, skills, and ability scores gained on levelup, it must be specifically scripted in in a function replacing or following GetLevelByClass and GetHitDice (just as it is specifically scripted in the levelup conversation to make the appropriate Leto edits). The only place this is currently feasible is with spells, where I have already replaced all the dc, resistance, and casterlevel checks with my own custom functions. The only one of those functions I am likely to edit to account for LL is casterlevel, which would affect damage dice and duration, but not dc or resistance. I certainly would NOT put an edit in for LL where it'd cause a forseeable balance issue. In short, for the issue you suggested as a problem to actually BE a problem, I'd have to script it in, and thats just not gonna happen.
***Inserting comment*** The DM had asked about the very same issue, with a high-ab assassin taking 20 more 'assassin' levels.***End comment***
For ANY level check to recognize LL, I MUST script it in, so balance issues will be reletively easy to handle. I hope this is a clearer, or at least better organized explanation than the one I gave earlier, cause I can't think of a better way to explain. I'll obviously have to be very careful in how I explain LL to the players.
************************
To reiterate, LLs will affect abilities, feats, and skills, and probably casterlevels (to an extent, may or may not count the whole 20). It will NOT affect feat requisites, dcs, or anything else unless I specifically force it to. The LL is an int, a number, that your character is tagged with, and thats it. Anything past that number is added by me, not the engine's leveling rules. GetHitDice will return a level 60 character as 40 unless I alter it for some reason (don't hold your breath on that one), and GetLevelByClass, GetLevelByPosition, and GetCasterlevel will all reflect lvl 40 unless I insert checks for that int. I will not be doing that, and the same is true of EVERY Bioware function. So WHAT will LL levels mean, on net? Well, let's look at the (still very hypothetical) level up progression.
41 +1 stat
42 +1 feat
43 +1 stat
44 +1 feat
45 +1 stat
46 +1 feat
47 +1 stat
48 +1 feat
49 +1 stat
50 +1 feat
51 +1 stat
52 +1 feat
53 +1 stat
54 +1 feat
55 +1 stat
56 +1 feat
57 +1 stat
58 +1 feat
59 +1 stat
60 +1 feat
Now, that's probably too many feats, but it's what's tentatively on the board. We are still in the middle of discussing skills, though I have confirmed that I could continue the skill point system as it stands, and even allow accumulation, though that would be reletively pointless, since you will NOT be able to switch which class is controlling your LLs - your selection will probably be locked down, which might even RESTRICT some of the cheesier builds we see ike 39 sorc 1 pally. You will either get a fixed number of points regardless of class, a number that varies by class controlling the LLs, or a number that reflects INT bonuses and class. We don't know, and I'm frankly unsure just how many skill points are needed. Possibly the same number, for many builds, possibly less.
What feats will be available, you ask? Dunno, but they each must be handpicked by me and inserted in a conversation, just like skills. Will Greater XYZStat be one of the choices? Possibly, depends on a lot of other stuff. Epic skill focuses will, I think, if you meet the reqs, which means lower level skill focuses will be. I forsee most of the non-epic stuff beiong available, and probably alotta the epic stuff, to grant people more leeway with some of the trickier builds and to allow more Epic Spell Focuses (for Epic Spell Variety).
So, with the stats, which might also be too much but I think are ok, thats an added 5 ab, and 5 dc on spells, which I will be planning for when I build the hells, and which wouldn't make the ssithraks and forthcoming illithids ALL that much easier (though I may have to up saves by a point or to as a compromise, or reduce the number of stat ups as low as 5, we'll see.
"What about that whole insane ab problem?" There isn't one. "Huh?" Not only will characters NOT get automatic increases to ab every two levels as they do in epic levels, they will get NONE. Why? Because we have no choice in the matter. Character files do n ot have an 'ab' field for leto to edit - so I can't bump ab, except by adding to stat scores. This naturally limits the increase of meleer power, and we will make sure casters are equally constrained. This is one reason why making LLs affect DCs is extraordinarily unlikely.
In any case, what IS planned is nothing like what you guys seem to be imagining. If you want dev crit on an assassin, you still gotta go 10/30, and take your LLs in assassin, as an example. To rehash a point made by hiryuu earlier about client-side leveling, this is SERVER-side leveling at its finest. I control everything, quite literally, via one master levelup conversation, which will boot you when it finishes to edit your character. As I mentioned earlier (in this thread? not sure...), I still have a few kinks to work out of the subrace system before this happens, 18 or so epic spells to write, the illithid areas, etc etc. so this is a WAYS off, and as I said in the email where I mentioned it briefly, we are taking our time and will playtest to nip any balance issues in the bud. I should mention that this system is going to be worked on extemsively, until damn near perfect, so that when NWN2 comes out and NWNX is adapted (assuming they don't provide ODBC or some other database hook in the game, which is looing less and less likely), we will be able to use it (no doubt with some tweaking for scripting differences), and hopefully even adapt it to offer level 40 before the game does - though that might be too tall an order.
I hope this clears the air somewhat.
Best,
Funky
Probably the best way I can explain your earlier question is this: a 20BG/20Ass who then takes 20 lengendary levels is best thought of like this: 20BG/20Ass/20LL. If I implement my present plan, the Ass would be the selected class for the LL, since alphabetically lower.
**Inserting comment**Normally the class with the most levels is selected, is the plan, with tiebreaks going to alphabetical order***End comment***
It would control the availability of feats and skills in LLs, and probably damage dice for spells. For LL to affect anything besides feats, skills, and ability scores gained on levelup, it must be specifically scripted in in a function replacing or following GetLevelByClass and GetHitDice (just as it is specifically scripted in the levelup conversation to make the appropriate Leto edits). The only place this is currently feasible is with spells, where I have already replaced all the dc, resistance, and casterlevel checks with my own custom functions. The only one of those functions I am likely to edit to account for LL is casterlevel, which would affect damage dice and duration, but not dc or resistance. I certainly would NOT put an edit in for LL where it'd cause a forseeable balance issue. In short, for the issue you suggested as a problem to actually BE a problem, I'd have to script it in, and thats just not gonna happen.
***Inserting comment*** The DM had asked about the very same issue, with a high-ab assassin taking 20 more 'assassin' levels.***End comment***
For ANY level check to recognize LL, I MUST script it in, so balance issues will be reletively easy to handle. I hope this is a clearer, or at least better organized explanation than the one I gave earlier, cause I can't think of a better way to explain. I'll obviously have to be very careful in how I explain LL to the players.
************************
To reiterate, LLs will affect abilities, feats, and skills, and probably casterlevels (to an extent, may or may not count the whole 20). It will NOT affect feat requisites, dcs, or anything else unless I specifically force it to. The LL is an int, a number, that your character is tagged with, and thats it. Anything past that number is added by me, not the engine's leveling rules. GetHitDice will return a level 60 character as 40 unless I alter it for some reason (don't hold your breath on that one), and GetLevelByClass, GetLevelByPosition, and GetCasterlevel will all reflect lvl 40 unless I insert checks for that int. I will not be doing that, and the same is true of EVERY Bioware function. So WHAT will LL levels mean, on net? Well, let's look at the (still very hypothetical) level up progression.
41 +1 stat
42 +1 feat
43 +1 stat
44 +1 feat
45 +1 stat
46 +1 feat
47 +1 stat
48 +1 feat
49 +1 stat
50 +1 feat
51 +1 stat
52 +1 feat
53 +1 stat
54 +1 feat
55 +1 stat
56 +1 feat
57 +1 stat
58 +1 feat
59 +1 stat
60 +1 feat
Now, that's probably too many feats, but it's what's tentatively on the board. We are still in the middle of discussing skills, though I have confirmed that I could continue the skill point system as it stands, and even allow accumulation, though that would be reletively pointless, since you will NOT be able to switch which class is controlling your LLs - your selection will probably be locked down, which might even RESTRICT some of the cheesier builds we see ike 39 sorc 1 pally. You will either get a fixed number of points regardless of class, a number that varies by class controlling the LLs, or a number that reflects INT bonuses and class. We don't know, and I'm frankly unsure just how many skill points are needed. Possibly the same number, for many builds, possibly less.
What feats will be available, you ask? Dunno, but they each must be handpicked by me and inserted in a conversation, just like skills. Will Greater XYZStat be one of the choices? Possibly, depends on a lot of other stuff. Epic skill focuses will, I think, if you meet the reqs, which means lower level skill focuses will be. I forsee most of the non-epic stuff beiong available, and probably alotta the epic stuff, to grant people more leeway with some of the trickier builds and to allow more Epic Spell Focuses (for Epic Spell Variety).
So, with the stats, which might also be too much but I think are ok, thats an added 5 ab, and 5 dc on spells, which I will be planning for when I build the hells, and which wouldn't make the ssithraks and forthcoming illithids ALL that much easier (though I may have to up saves by a point or to as a compromise, or reduce the number of stat ups as low as 5, we'll see.
"What about that whole insane ab problem?" There isn't one. "Huh?" Not only will characters NOT get automatic increases to ab every two levels as they do in epic levels, they will get NONE. Why? Because we have no choice in the matter. Character files do n ot have an 'ab' field for leto to edit - so I can't bump ab, except by adding to stat scores. This naturally limits the increase of meleer power, and we will make sure casters are equally constrained. This is one reason why making LLs affect DCs is extraordinarily unlikely.
In any case, what IS planned is nothing like what you guys seem to be imagining. If you want dev crit on an assassin, you still gotta go 10/30, and take your LLs in assassin, as an example. To rehash a point made by hiryuu earlier about client-side leveling, this is SERVER-side leveling at its finest. I control everything, quite literally, via one master levelup conversation, which will boot you when it finishes to edit your character. As I mentioned earlier (in this thread? not sure...), I still have a few kinks to work out of the subrace system before this happens, 18 or so epic spells to write, the illithid areas, etc etc. so this is a WAYS off, and as I said in the email where I mentioned it briefly, we are taking our time and will playtest to nip any balance issues in the bud. I should mention that this system is going to be worked on extemsively, until damn near perfect, so that when NWN2 comes out and NWNX is adapted (assuming they don't provide ODBC or some other database hook in the game, which is looing less and less likely), we will be able to use it (no doubt with some tweaking for scripting differences), and hopefully even adapt it to offer level 40 before the game does - though that might be too tall an order.
I hope this clears the air somewhat.
Best,
Funky