|
Post by Ironfang on Sept 26, 2006 14:31:16 GMT
I find that my Arcane Caster (Sorc) has a much easier time being a tactical killing machine than a Druid can. With GS, BBoD, TS, etc. You can mass large areas in relative safety and then use which ever tactic is most successful on the mob at hand. Wail comes to mind or just spam Meteors from within your Concealed, Elemental Shielded, Energy Buffed, Premontion coccon of safety. The fact that a Druid often has to sit around to make sure they don't break loot is a pretty big detriment. I am about to get immo with my Druid, so I will know more soon. I made a Druid as Fallen Angel was the first UR race I was able to get my hands on. I have a level 60 Cleric already and I really found I prefer casters. I use the Mass Bigby and Contingency and love them both. If Arcane Epics are being looked at one easy one would be let Mass Bigby be cast 2 x / day. Since noone uses it anyways
|
|
|
Post by Delfestra Ruinvorn on Sept 26, 2006 17:27:59 GMT
Interesting that you neglected to mention death magic. ^^ Funky Yes, but the main points were more centered around the universal applications of exotic damage as an offensive weapon. Of course, druids DO get Finger of Death, which is quite nice as far as death magic goes. And of course, death magic doesn't have universal application. It's situational, which is of course just fine. Part of the point is that druid offense is universally useful, not the same kind of situational that death magic, elemental magic etc. Its quite interesting here really, as a vet who simply prefers casters, I've noticed one thing. The effect a single effective caster of a certain type has on the entire server...My point being, they mimic the strong vets who figure out how to play a class and exploit enemies weakness...And druids can NOT use GS scrolls. And yes I agree with Funky, no death magic hurts druids badly. P.S. Deva uses Mass Bigbys, and has for some time, but like you said, its situational, and it was still bugged when I played her frequently. Huh. You know, I never would've thought of that as "the reason" why. This is why multiple perspectives are so very useful! Though I have to point out, druids DO have death magic - Finger of Death. Kills things dead. Granted, its not like having FoD, Wail, AND PWK, but it does get the job done. As to Deva, that kinda shows how truly limited or "useless" Mass Bigbies can be - all that time adventuring with you, and I never saw you use it...not once. And that was a loooot of ssithrak runs too. We used DoM much more often. But enough reminiscing...in view of the comparisons between druids and other casters, do you think there needs to be tweaking done either at the spell level, or the epic spell level? That is the question. In the end i would respose to delf's : I dont get it... if u know that seat of power on HG change (i would think it should) why brother to post this? The point of the post was to stack things up side by side to compare, so that those who make the balance decisions can decide if things need tweaking at this moment. The answer may be "yes", the answer may be "no", thats not really important. What is important, is that the question was asked. In answer to this I don't believe it works like this anymore kb vs kb = no kb to either combatant the caster can still get kb if its aoe so you need to be careful when letting the Balor loose against certain enemies. I had a certain area with tons of AoE kickback in mind - not thinking about the kickback vs kickback implosions, since that was fixed. And situational effects aren't bad, in fact I think they're *good* since they force thought and choice on the players. This is also not considering all the other useful spells mages get like wail and stone to flesh, tensers, mords, GS, timestop, PWK, and a host of others. it sounds like you want mages to have access to all of these really useful spells, and still be the best masterblasters on top of it. I would agree however that arcane casters need a slight defensive boost, especially around the 40-55 LLs where they really struggle in leg areas. Yes, we've got plenty of situational spells, and thats fine. The main thrust of the points discussed was the universal application of the exotic damage, vs the situational nature of all other spells. Wail's and pwk are useless vs death immune, S-t-Flesh is only needed in the desert, mords doesn't matter if I don't need it, TS needs to be used intelligently etc...while the exotic damage types work on pretty much everything, any time. And if one spell doesn't work on one monster, since druids get all four types, they've got one that works. And in your skimming, you missed a bit. I absolutely am NOT saying that wizards or sorcerers need to be able to cast everything druids can. I'm not saying I need to be the undisputed queen of all offense. I'm not saying druids need to be nerfed into uselessness either. I'm simply pointing out what I see as the situation on the ground in game, and letting the DM staff decide if tweaking needs to happen in some way. If there does need to be tweaking, its up to them to figure out what to do...and if its not needed, its not needed. *shrug* I've seen most classes rocked by certain people, Delf being one of them himself. I may be over simplifying this, but I think the balance is that Druids have their speciality and other classes have theirs too. Shunt has helped my Strength build out on Desert runs a lot, but I've still had to res the Druid who cast it.. Thank you! (And its herself...forget not the bitch boots) While I have to absolutely crack up in laughter about the ressing your caster line, I do agree with you on the balance point. Things *should* be imperfect, forcing choices for each situation, and everyone should have strengths and weaknesses. And the weaknesses should get you killed. Without risk and consequence, the weaknesses have little meaning. Perfection, complete immunity, god-mode style defense and unstoppable offense all are the enemies of a good game. They make things boring, and encourage people to test their powers out on other people to find an interesting opponent *or* out of a sadistic desire to crush people lower to make themselves higher in contrast. All of these are bad, and are not part of our servers right now, and should never be. But the higher the power, the higher the risk of that happening, which is why we all need to be careful. I use the Mass Bigby and Contingency and love them both. If Arcane Epics are being looked at one easy one would be let Mass Bigby be cast 2 x / day. Since noone uses it anyways I think its good to see alternative feat selections out there. What I wouldn't give for another epic spell! Still, come find me sometime and we can go play with your Mass Bigbies...I've still never seen it, and want to see how useful it is in reality.
|
|
|
Post by versengeteriks on Sept 26, 2006 17:32:11 GMT
Mena my 52lvl wizzy regularly uses Swarm, She is basically a bigby mage with a bunch of other spells which she uses in the offchance the heavys fail to kill the enemy. She normally packs very few offensive spells that are much good because of the number of bigbys. But thats my play style with her. I know the downside to swarm is basically caster positioning relative to target/s. Mena is a hasted pixie so i move to a good position before i cast swarm. But cast from a poor spot and u miss a large chunk of the targets for u slow moving humanoids i can see this would be a big problem :-). she can solo but i dont really have the kit to do so often. plus because i generalised and went for 5 custom epics ive never pushed my spell penetration further than needed to get the epics. So my other offensive spells suck. But i dont mind. It means i have a weakness, it means i have to rely on my party, and they learn to accept mena's contribution where she is strong.
I have noticed that she is now getting killed much faster now that there has been an update. I am pleased its being sorted.
I have played a Cleric to 41, my build was pants, and i know better now and will do another in the furture. I am now onto my first pure druid. I have put it off thus far because i didnt really like the the way they looked on paper. I started one because i forced my self to try one. And im glad i did. I dont see my druid as particularly hard, he has his weak points. But that is the point of the game is it not.
Play to your toons strengths, build a toon with a specific role in mind. Play tactically to your strengths, avoid letting the bad guys exploit yours. This is why HG encourages Group play, or should we say CO-OPERATIVE play. If u have 5 mages in the desert tegether and they get owned, good. If you have 5 fighters and u cant open THE loot chest, good. Classes look best when U have the only toon for the job, and you bought him/her with you.
There are minor balance issues with Wizzys vs druids vs clerics, and i agree with some of the points above about SR ignoring good spells sharing spell levels with crap ones in between. But they are not huge issues. And even with the current Item heavy requirement to play some areas it still depends greatly on your build.
It might seem a bit unfair to Wizzys and Sorcs atm but when were all playing druids, whos gonna volunteer theirs to be the meat sheild?
Diversify, Co operate, deal with it.
Trix
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Sept 26, 2006 18:53:18 GMT
Yes, but the main points were more centered around the universal applications of exotic damage as an offensive weapon. But if you post regarding 'Caster Class Balance' and attempt a side by side comparison, but leave out a major point of comparison, it hopelessly skews the comparison, which was the point I was making. Funky
|
|
|
Post by Delfestra Ruinvorn on Sept 26, 2006 19:23:49 GMT
I know my post wasn't complete. It'd be nigh impossible for me to cover every base because I don't have access to monster stats, item lists and future area plans, which are also part of game balance concerns. What I can do, is bring up what I see in a relatively cohesive and meaningful form.
While death magic was left out, it doesn't diminish what comparisons were included, the question of whether or not tweaking is needed is still out there, even if there are more factors than just what I stated. I'm sure there are, just as I'm sure I can't exhaustively enumerate every single one of them.
If we want to add death magic discussion: Druids get death magic in Finger of Death. It does both single target death and also negative damage. So out of the 6 forms of death magic, they get a very solid form that can be used when other the types simply can't be. It is effective on things both death immune and mind immune, even if the end result is damage and not death. Much more universal than situational for those reasons.
I also left out grabby hands, hold monster, flesh to stone, power word stun, web, grease, CoB, damage fog spells, confusion, bestow curse, dominate monster etc...and didn't talk about spike growth, vine mine, drown or inferno. But those weren't brought up by either of us.
In any discussion, there has to be *some* limitation to the boundry else we'd not see the trees for the forest.
|
|
|
Post by lala on Sept 26, 2006 19:31:50 GMT
Personally I feel the casters are pretty well balanced, although I still would like to see a little tweaking for caster clerics aside from the use of implode. Druids are pretty well balanced because they have no mass mob instant death spell, they rely on getting into the middle of the mob if they want to kill a lot efficiently. I see a lot of people playing Druids but they are still looking for the technique to keep themselves alive while efficiently killing, not everyone can do this. In conclusion certain areas work better for the different casters; mages kick backside with the Sssith, druids in desert, clerics not sure but probably DB run? I like the fluctuation in areas that highlights different class strengths. Gives me a reason to build at least one of each
|
|
|
Post by Ironfang on Sept 26, 2006 19:50:43 GMT
Another point, you mention the general usefulness of their spells due to exotic damage.
One problem I see is that they (Druids) just can't cast as many of a particular spell as their counterparts. Sorcerers have the innate advantage of picking what is needed and spontaneous metamagics. Wizards have the luxury of the bonus feats which allow them to take more metamagics Silent, Empower, Maximize thus offering more of their useful spells in certain areas.
I think you will find the feat starved Druid will not often have those. Mine currently only has Empower and can't see taking more without losing Gr. Wisdom or the Epics that you mention are so valuable. I am also forgoing Spell Penatration feats in lieu of the fact I will have some SR byassing spells, I do see this biting me in the butt though.
You can also argue that most of their (Druid) spells are situational as the situation calls for there to be no loot to break. Its nice to lay down a barrage of Meteors without worrying, which seem to do great damage just about everywhere.
P.S. I am not trying to argue with Delf and she may indeed be right I am just throwing things out there cause I hate to work while at work (and it helps me keep track of where I have read up to when browsing the last 60 posts).
PPS. Delf would be happy to party with you somewhere, as of late I have been doing Beholders and casting Mass Bigby on 4-6 Death Kisses and Grubs comes in awful handy. I would also routinely use on 3 stinger priests at a time or the large group around the corner where the Stinger chief is. It also works on Mobs in Pyramid where regular 7th level does not. But I digress....
|
|
|
Post by Lord FlashHeart on Sept 27, 2006 7:03:21 GMT
Yes, we've got plenty of situational spells, and thats fine. The main thrust of the points discussed was the universal application of the exotic damage, vs the situational nature of all other spells. Wail's and pwk are useless vs death immune, S-t-Flesh is only needed in the desert, mords doesn't matter if I don't need it, TS needs to be used intelligently etc...while the exotic damage types work on pretty much everything, any time. And if one spell doesn't work on one monster, since druids get all four types, they've got one that works. And in your skimming, you missed a bit. I absolutely am NOT saying that wizards or sorcerers need to be able to cast everything druids can. I'm not saying I need to be the undisputed queen of all offense. I'm not saying druids need to be nerfed into uselessness either. I'm simply pointing out what I see as the situation on the ground in game, and letting the DM staff decide if tweaking needs to happen in some way. If there does need to be tweaking, its up to them to figure out what to do...and if its not needed, its not needed. *shrug* Sorry I'm still struggling to understand exactly what you are trying to say, after reading through lines and lines of euphemistic language, it seems to me that what you are essentially saying is that you dont think Druids should have access to all four exotic damage types, due to the fact that mages and clerics only have access to 3. Would this be correct? And that we have to disregard all the other spells that mages get, because we are comparing exotic damage spells only?
|
|
|
Post by doomsdaybringer on Sept 27, 2006 8:05:12 GMT
Yes, we've got plenty of situational spells, and thats fine. The main thrust of the points discussed was the universal application of the exotic damage, vs the situational nature of all other spells. Wail's and pwk are useless vs death immune, S-t-Flesh is only needed in the desert, mords doesn't matter if I don't need it, TS needs to be used intelligently etc...while the exotic damage types work on pretty much everything, any time. And if one spell doesn't work on one monster, since druids get all four types, they've got one that works. And in your skimming, you missed a bit. I absolutely am NOT saying that wizards or sorcerers need to be able to cast everything druids can. I'm not saying I need to be the undisputed queen of all offense. I'm not saying druids need to be nerfed into uselessness either. I'm simply pointing out what I see as the situation on the ground in game, and letting the DM staff decide if tweaking needs to happen in some way. If there does need to be tweaking, its up to them to figure out what to do...and if its not needed, its not needed. *shrug* Sorry I'm still struggling to understand exactly what you are trying to say, after reading through lines and lines of euphemistic language, it seems to me that what you are essentially saying is that you dont think Druids should have access to all four exotic damage types, due to the fact that mages and clerics only have access to 3. Would this be correct? And that we have to disregard all the other spells that mages get, because we are comparing exotic damage spells only? i am too a bit lost....what are here to discuses about? druid too power? mage and cleric now underpower(i hope not since i just build my first wiz on HG)? comparing caster's ability to do elemental/exotic damge? comparing caster's ability to do exotic damge?
|
|
|
Post by talon on Oct 7, 2006 11:13:57 GMT
The original poster seems to want changes to the druid class as it gets more exotic types, in comparison with other caster type classes. However, doesn't want to focus on any of the big weaknesses the druid class brings to the table as well, simply refering to not being a part of his comparison. As for death magic I don't think people meant druids had 0 death spells, i think they were referencing the fact of AOE Death spells that work in most areas. Personally i am happy with both, and as for influx of druids, I still see alot more Sorc/Wiz running around then druids. If any changes were to be made, I would assume druids need a shift for the better. There only strong point (talking about a caster druid) is there EQ, Bomb, and Quil of which the 2 AOE's break loot, yet they are extremely defensless and will die alot quicker then the other casters. In fact the change wouldnt even be made to druid itself, but mabey to equiptment to give them a chance to survive a little better. ;p
And of course this is all from my perspective.
|
|
|
Post by cathedralmaster on Oct 7, 2006 19:15:07 GMT
If any changes were to be made, I would assume druids need a shift for the better. There only strong point (talking about a caster druid) is there EQ, Bomb, and Quil of which the 2 AOE's break loot, yet they are extremely defensless and will die alot quicker then the other casters. Only if you haven't equipped it very well. Beyond the party defenses, druids are more like str tanks than wizards when it comes to defense - it requires good equipment. To give you an idea: My lvl 40 druid has 110 ac (109 unbuffed), 50% immunity to physical damage, 30 resist to all elemental damage, 15 resist to divine, 10 resist to all the other exotics, whatever the conceal is from shroad of nature, whatever the elemental immunity precentage you get from elemental shunt, and all this without wearing any rings. I'd say that is far from defenseless.
|
|
|
Post by talon on Oct 8, 2006 15:51:04 GMT
When you say by lvl 40, isnt that all with UR's gotten with alot of time from other char's? As well as having shunt right when you get lvl 40?
how many players will have all this UR gear ready to go right off the back?
I am assuming here ( I know thats a bad thing to do alot of the time ;p ) That the server is made in mind where everyone will need UR gear by lvl 40 to have a "good" build?
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Oct 8, 2006 17:37:09 GMT
That's a bad assumption. Druids are actually far stronger defensively than clerics, even with crappy gear. Funky
|
|
|
Post by talon on Oct 8, 2006 22:06:29 GMT
That could be very well true as i know nothing abotu clerics and learning alot about NWn each day as I am a new player.
However, i was refering mainly to the Druid vs Caster (Wiz/Sorc) in my assumption. As i wrong in saying that a Sorc/Wiz is better off defensively? either both havign no UR gear or both having the best UR gear they could have in comparing? (this is of course including benefits from spells, and not going into how certain areas could dispell certain things and such, but just a general comparison and not a specific case by case comparison of areas within the world.
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Oct 8, 2006 22:24:44 GMT
Mages are the best defended of the three caster classes in general, yes, though their advantage will be somewhat attenuated in the Hells. Clerics are the worst off defensively. You, like Delfestra, are looking at things from too narrow a perspective. Funky
|
|