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Post by jvnorris on Dec 5, 2006 8:23:17 GMT
Ok not sure how viable this is but It would be nice to see some other kind of damage bonus added to the AA bows. The Mighty +?? is kinda pointless as the chances of a viable AA with a high enough strength could never be made. I mean the mighty bonus is there to be used but How many AA's exsist that have a +14-+17 STR bonus. and if so the build may not be that viable to survive in HG. Maybe replaceing that option with an increased threat range would be nice. More Crit possibilities to make up for the lack of ability to use strength and never having the option to use Keen. Seein as overall this would make more sense. I know the AA has been tweaked alot and they are very powerfull this is more of a why have something that cant possibly be used well. In my PNP games I made allowances for people who invested enough in their character in a particular class to use that primary stat not just for attack but damage also. (which i honestly find here would be WAY over powered) but maybe the use of Half the Dex bonus applied to damage also could be nice. THis in turn would not make the Weapon persay that level of damage (for the purposes of DR and soaking) but just an addition of physical damage. Thinking of the class in a more logical sense this would be more feasable I belive then having a Mighty bonus that could not be used.
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Post by thedomicron on Dec 5, 2006 9:02:43 GMT
AA's are incredibly powerful on this server. i don't see why you need more bonuses. funky said that aa's won't be getting any upgrades for a long long time
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Post by lala on Dec 5, 2006 13:28:13 GMT
I agree they are strong enough, having the str related dmg on bows also offers an alternative char development for those interested.
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Post by jvnorris on Dec 5, 2006 14:27:29 GMT
The point is that I doubt it would be possible to build an AA that can take advantag of a +14 to + 17 mighty bonus on a bow. To build and AA with that much Strength you would have to sacrifice some like DEx and then what would you have an AA With a ridiculous Strength that cant hit anything at all. SO what is the point of having it at all. I dont doubt one could be build but on these servers it would be useless. THese are supposed to be bows that are designed for an AA only to use. Why have a stat or bonus added to it that HOnestly has no use.
If you belive you can build a useable AA that has a +14 str bonus I would like to see it and see how far that character can get. Just getting them to a +4 STR bonus then taking advantage of buffs you still would have to give up a good amount of Dex.
I never said that the AA was underpowered but in all fairness. A Magic users Primary stat gets used twice in the development of its character class for number of powerful spells and the DC and in some cases damages.. A fighter gets to add his Strenght to attack AND damage. Plus all the other bonuses they can get PLUS buffs to increase threat ranges. THe only thing I suggested is my primary Idea of replacing the STR MIghty bonus with Keen equivelents. What I am advising is not a change to the character class itself but to the items restricted to that class to make them more viable to that class. If you think carefully and Logically about it it makes more sense anyway that a good Archer who has bonded with his weapon as such would have a higher chance of getting critical hits. I know this is not a roleplaying server but it is still a roleplaying game after all. TO be honest the best thing to make sense would be that no matter what an AA faces they should be able to make a critical hit to the target. (excluding undead maybe) IF you are the Uber Archer you are supposed to be. In under 15 feet I dont care what you are A dragon Or any character an Archer can hit you in the face and THAT would do critical damage. Currently the AA is only capable of Massive damages though the use of Imbue and Hail and Seeker. This is not what I am speaking about. I am talking BASELINE damages. I am only basing this on my experiences as both a GM and player both in computer and PNP.
The comparisons for development should FIRST be based on a naked character using mundane items then build from there. A magic user is deadly with just basic stats. A true weaponmaster is devastating with their increased threat ranges and base bonuses to Damage and strikeing even with a mundane sword. A Monk Has great damage potential for a barehanded fighter. Give an AA a Mundane Bow and the ONLY advantage they have are their base skills Imbue, Seeker and hails which although nice is no comparison to the the other classes and in mundane gear is quickly negated by Deafness (Magic users yes are left to same downfall but they have several spells that can be used pre battle to offset this problem).
Face it on a level playing field the AA is broken by comparison.
In GM terms the ECL for a Level 40 AA in mundane equipment would never stand a chance against any other class. This has always been seen in my RP groups as a drawback to the AA class. And Bioware didn't do the class much help.
Oh and there is another option in this I did not think about that would be reasonable. Replacing the Mighty bonus with Immunity to deafness or any other abilty that negates the ability to use the the AA's Magical abilities (imbue,seeker,Hail). This would even be fairer to the character class as that is currently the only major danger to the class.
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Post by lala on Dec 5, 2006 14:51:53 GMT
Hi jvnorris, a STR version is do-able but would have problems tanking. Once you have built 5 AAs that are all Dex, maybe the interest and challenge in trying a Str version would be stronger. As a comparison try using large dualwpns on a medium character, by your same argument its impossible to do but yet I can place a bet many will try now as they get extra attacks on large dual wpns. For me its about the diversity and challenge, not always about a build that is strongest to survive (that can be done with a lot of builds). Edit: And yes I do have in mind an AA that can survive as a Str build, do I want to share it no Sorry but I like the quirky bits to my builds to be at times relatively unique, which is nearly impossible to do with the very good players on HG.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 5, 2006 14:56:38 GMT
AA's are incredibly powerful on this server. i don't see why you need more bonuses. funky said that aa's won't be getting any upgrades for a long long time
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Post by jvnorris on Dec 5, 2006 15:03:25 GMT
Hi jvnorris, a STR version is do-able but would have problems tanking. Once you have built 5 AAs that are all Dex, maybe the interest and challenge in trying a Str version would be stronger. As a comparison try using large dualwpns on a medium character, by your same argument its impossible to do but yet I can place a bet many will try now as they get extra attacks on large dual wpns. For me its about the diversity and challenge, not always about a build that is strongest to survive (that can be done with a lot of builds). Problems Tanking and Attacking . The edge of the class is the Ability to STRIKE its targets without fail. Staying TRUE to the character class this requires a DEX build as the idea of the class is the use of dexterity. I understand that the idea of a strength build might be nice to try as a change from the norm but For HG the base idea for a character build is to have HIgh AC and AB. 90% of classes when Developing along those lines and focusing on their character class and primary ability they recive both the bonus of being able to strike their target and do incredible damage with that hit. IE Mages Primary stat bonuses Spell DC and Damages. and Number of attacks (number of spells) Melee builds Gain Bonus from STR as it incresaes their ability to strike ability and damage. The AA the only bonus from their primary stat is an increased chance of hitting and this is the only class FOCUSED on ranged attack (with a weapon that is).
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Post by jvnorris on Dec 5, 2006 15:04:20 GMT
AA's are incredibly powerful on this server. i don't see why you need more bonuses. funky said that aa's won't be getting any upgrades for a long long time Once again I'm not talking about the class I'm talking about the items. But overall its not like I would stop playing because of this this is just something that as a roleplayer i have found lacking in the game. THe guys here have done a remarkable job trying to balance the classes its just that this is an aspect that tends to get overlooked when dealing with DND overall and in order to make the Class more logical it makde sense that the Dex bonus would be applied to damage. It is a fault as the AA was always handled as a second rate class when it came to character development. Its a GM/Player thing that has always Bugged me about DND and something I never failed to correct and modify whenever I started up a game.
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Post by lala on Dec 5, 2006 15:46:25 GMT
Hi jvnorris, a STR version is do-able but would have problems tanking. Once you have built 5 AAs that are all Dex, maybe the interest and challenge in trying a Str version would be stronger. As a comparison try using large dualwpns on a medium character, by your same argument its impossible to do but yet I can place a bet many will try now as they get extra attacks on large dual wpns. For me its about the diversity and challenge, not always about a build that is strongest to survive (that can be done with a lot of builds). Problems Tanking and Attacking . The edge of the class is the Ability to STRIKE its targets without fail. Staying TRUE to the character class this requires a DEX build as the idea of the class is the use of dexterity. I understand that the idea of a strength build might be nice to try as a change from the norm but For HG the base idea for a character build is to have HIgh AC and AB. 90% of classes when Developing along those lines and focusing on their character class and primary ability they recive both the bonus of being able to strike their target and do incredible damage with that hit. IE Mages Primary stat bonuses Spell DC and Damages. and Number of attacks (number of spells) Melee builds Gain Bonus from STR as it incresaes their ability to strike ability and damage. The AA the only bonus from their primary stat is an increased chance of hitting and this is the only class FOCUSED on ranged attack (with a weapon that is). I have to say my favourite character does not follow the concept you mention. Its a cleric designed to open all locks in game. Thats the beauty of HG, you can diversify so well that there is no 1 ground for any classes.
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Post by awkmage on Dec 5, 2006 15:56:38 GMT
Interesting.
This reminds me of some items I once saw on another action server that had useless (for that world) properties such as bluff +20. The reason they did that was to jack up the level restriction on the item without making it too uber.
Arcane archers also get the enchant arrow feats, which has to be taken into consideration (and screws up the "simple calculation" since it also bypasses damage reduction) for balance purposes.
I wonder if mighty +17 isn't meant to be useful, but rather is one of the builders' ways of keeping that particular bow out of the hands of some enterprising lower level archer. One could build the bow in the toolset and see what impact mighty has on level restriction to prove/disprove that theory, but I'd say it's a strong possibility.
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Post by Ironfang on Dec 5, 2006 15:59:43 GMT
Yes, if everyone only follows someone elses build HG is going to become a clone fest. It is nice to see people posting their successful builds. It is very helpful for new players because of all the changes, new players here tend to make poor builds based on other servers. It is also helpful for vets to look at these build and get ideas for new concepts.
My first build here was a Cleric / AA and I did have STR enough to use Mighty Bows, not + 14 I think it was +10 and yes I did abandon him but only because I didn't understand control classes until it was too late and I would like to try a remake soon.
Bonuses from Dex include a high AC and opens up the Self-Conceal feats as well.
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Post by jvnorris on Dec 5, 2006 16:08:25 GMT
Obviously you are not understanding the point of what I am saying. YES you can build ANYTHING you want in DND. Going by the BASICS of the game concept answer me this. How many priests do you know that have studied the Theiving arts? the chances are few and far between. Trying to stay (i'll use the word again) TRUE to the character class. It is a failing in the design concepts of DND in general. one i was recommending a fix for. that was all. If you do not understand what i'm saying then you have not studied this gaming system "DND" (along with about twenty others) like I have. If you want to get into a technical debate about DND and what it is I am speaking about 1. It does not belong here. 2. You will lose. This is a concept that I have studied and worked out and going by the basic descriptions of what the class is WOTC failed in the creation of this prestige class. I have done alot of roleplaying and gameing study. It was my life for several years. I understand that the beauty of the game is diversity and the ability to go anywhere with it. But this is a flaw that i though should be addressed. Interesting. This reminds me of some items I once saw on another action server that had useless (for that world) properties such as bluff +20. The reason they did that was to jack up the level restriction on the item without making it too uber. Arcane archers also get the enchant arrow feats, which has to be taken into consideration (and screws up the "simple calculation" since it also bypasses damage reduction) for balance purposes. I wonder if mighty +17 isn't meant to be useful, but rather is one of the builders' ways of keeping that particular bow out of the hands of some enterprising lower level archer. One could build the bow in the toolset and see what impact mighty has on level restriction to prove/disprove that theory, but I'd say it's a strong possibility. If this is the case then so be it That is understandable. And the enchant arrow feat is a Plausable addition but then again not really special or dedicated as that is just a balace to the fact the GMW is not usable on a bow and/or arrow. I did take that into consideration in my calculations. That said I am leaving this topic alone. Funk made his statement and I will live with that.
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Post by lala on Dec 5, 2006 16:38:48 GMT
As your not responding I will get the last say heheh ;D
I do understand your point, but NWN isnt based upon a class pure focus, its based upon characters. Characters that can have multiple classes and multiple skills.
I understand that in NWN2 you can even have 4 classes (might be wrong so please correct me if so).
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Post by dapperdave on Dec 5, 2006 18:31:25 GMT
I once met a priest who was a bit of a "bad lad" in his youth, does that count?
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Post by Ironfang on Dec 5, 2006 19:14:05 GMT
If you do not understand what i'm saying then you have not studied this gaming system "DND" (along with about twenty others) like I have. If you want to get into a technical debate about DND and what it is I am speaking about 1. It does not belong here. 2. You will lose. You do realize how arrogant and condescending this sounds, right? Some of your audience have played this game since, 1974 which I am guessing is well before you were born. Others have actually designed their own game systems and understand game mechanics quite well.
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