Two ideas for Hells

[Acaos]

First off, the Hells are great. I've had a lot of fun there over the past few days since they went in, and I'd like to thank everyone I've partied with and say they are all excellent players. The challenges are incredible and really make people work together, and the zones look great.

I'd like two make two suggestions for the Hells:

First, it would be very nice if all Hells random loot drops (perhaps after the first map of Avernus, to prevent people from just farming that map) were guaranteed to be at least rare. I've been on successful Hells runs where the only good loot was from the boss. Since almost all successful Hells parties are 8-10 people, this means that the bottom rollers have dedicated a great deal of time and risk for not much reward. Someone in the party I was in tonight put it best when they said 'You wouldn't expect someone exploring the Hells to be wearing cynic's chain'.

Second, and I know this has been discussed and rejected before for other tags, but it would be very nice for Hells tags to go to everyone in the party, alive or dead, as long as they are in the Hells or Limbo. For a Hells run to succeed, everyone in the party needs to work hard and contribute, and I've been on runs where people who worked hard and were absolutely vital to the success of the run missed out on their tag due to bad luck (limboed at the wrong time or were resting or dead). This is also important since you need the tag to continue with your party (though I understand that DMs can grant temporary tags to allow for that).

Thanks,
Acaos

[FunkySwerve]

Just upped the loot in an interim update tonight. If you can suggest an fairer tagging system that is no more exploitable than the current one I'm all ears. Your suugestion doesn't meet those criteria.
Funky

[dodrudon]

How about granting a temporary tag to those dead and in the same area then? I'm not sure if that'd be weird, say maybe someone with xul getting the temp tag and killing lloth then immo, then not having xul tag but both lloth and immo....

[fusa]

An anonymous vote for a tag could work. As long as the party is able to complete the tag requirments and 100% of the party vote anonymously for the tag be given to the party member who missed it the tagless member receives the tag.

[Argon]

Here he comes again, the guy that's always saying "make things harder"....

Not suprisingly, I'd say to leave things the way they are. The hells are SUPPOSED to be wicked hard... you're SUPPOSED to be playing on the edge of your seat, adrenaline pumping through your veins, praying that you stay alive....

If you start watering things down and giving away tags like this, personally I'd think it would dilute the satisfaction of really getting the tag. As is, if it takes you 4 runs to finally live long enough to get the tag, the satisfaction's that much greater when you do finally earn it.

Just my humble opinion, swimming against the tide. :-)

[archmage]

Have you been there?

[Parazia]

yeah cause i know that the people who have ran with me and missed the tag were EXTREMELY PISSED!! what if the hells bosses did a mas res b4 giving the tag?

[stonewarrior]

fusa said:

An anonymous vote for a tag could work. As long as the party is able to complete the tag requirments and 100% of the party vote anonymously for the tag be given to the party member who missed it the tagless member receives the tag.

I will preface by saying I have not been to the Hells yet...

I do not think this would be a good way to determine a tag as it is too subjective. As I have not been I will use the Illithids run as an example. A caster is going to be signficantly more valuable during the course of a run than a pure melee or rogue toon. They will have their moments, but from start to finish the casters have more value. In the end suppose a caster and a melee toon miss the tag and a vote is to be held. It is quite possible the caster would be unanimously awarded the tag but the melee toon might not. Is this fair? The melee toon probably would have done their best to contribute to the party but s/he can't compete with the caster firepower and thus overall value.

Also, in a 10 person party each person to vote might have a different criteria for how they determine if the person "contributed". What if you have a group of 9 who play together regularly allow an "outsider" to join and that "outsider" and one of the "regulars" miss the tag. It is possible the "regular" gets a free pass while the "outsider" would be judged differently.

I can not imagine how I would feel if I missed the tag but do not think this ought to be a solution.

Peace, John.

[FunkySwerve]

stonewarrior said:

fusa said:

An anonymous vote for a tag could work. As long as the party is able to complete the tag requirments and 100% of the party vote anonymously for the tag be given to the party member who missed it the tagless member receives the tag.

I will preface by saying I have not been to the Hells yet...

I do not think this would be a good way to determine a tag as it is too subjective. As I have not been I will use the Illithids run as an example. A caster is going to be signficantly more valuable during the course of a run than a pure melee or rogue toon. They will have their moments, but from start to finish the casters have more value. In the end suppose a caster and a melee toon miss the tag and a vote is to be held. It is quite possible the caster would be unanimously awarded the tag but the melee toon might not. Is this fair? The melee toon probably would have done their best to contribute to the party but s/he can't compete with the caster firepower and thus overall value.

Actually I think the subjectivity of this approach is its greatest strength - people can easily distinguish dead weight from someone trying their best, while a script cannot. The divisiveness it would cause, however, is why it'll never be implemented.
Funky

[nohmask]

I'm betting that this will then become a situation similar to when a (boss with a tag) is about to bite it and those with the tag try to make sure that those without keep back and raised. In the mean time though, while people are stiff figuring out how to make the Hells work, both the creators of it and the players, this means that you might have some that just hang back at the end so they wont die, while others plow on, and due to the luck of rolls and such you will get hard players that dont get the tag, and also might have someone that had an unstoppable afk moment (a diaper expolding, etc.) at the end get the tag even though they were just standing there. Sounds like business as usual to me. Funny how a place called the Hells seems to be bringing out the worst in some people, and the best in others....well, mostly the former from what I have seen. Lets hope that changes in time. This area (only seen up being sat on by four HUGE dragons at once..then lovely Limbo) is very exciting as a challenge, and has inspired me to look at new tactics and hunt for specialized gear, as it should be! Now if I could only get some people to do some regular Pyramid runs to prep for the Hells...hmm, maybe a new thread would help.... Thanks again!

[FunkySwerve]

At the moment I'm leaning toward doodrudon's solution - though making clear to players what's happened will be a pain.
Funky

[alandrian]

Although i never missed a tag because of being dead myself with any of my toon,but i can feel the pain of those ppl. Most of the time its quite unfair. If i play my 'You-cant-hit-me-toon', I do poor damage but have a great chance to just sit in front of lets say ssith and pick my nose, while other with more offensive builds that contribute much more than me die more often. So the fact of beeing dead just in the wrong second does not mean anthing about how you earned the tag or not.
Its quite common that when facing the boss those who need the tag stay back. I saw a db run where 5/8 ppl in the group stayed in one corner nearly the whole time while the other 3 killed dusty. They didnt want to risk to die and therefore not getting the tag. In this case the current tag system prevented them to contribute to be sure to tag.
I am not sure about the exploits, but if you have the immunities to save you from kickbacks, all you need is stay back or stay in gs to get lets say any tag beside hell. I cant think how this could be worse with a more fair system.

[FunkySwerve]

alandrian said:

I cant think how this could be worse with a more fair system.

Such as?

funkyswerve said:

If you can suggest an fairer tagging system that is no more exploitable than the current one I'm all ears.Funky

Funky

[illandous]

I do like the temporary tag situation, I've died in Xul and then had to wait for e respawn of him before going on and doing lloth. I assume that the temporary tag would work untill the next reset of that server.

That's the best Idea I've heard.

as far as loot goes, I haven't been to the hells, but I do not want the server to be saturated with rares. You will just have to rebalence the server... again.

On another note. how long does it even take to get to the hells with a moderatly equiped party?

[chainlink]

illandous said:

I do like the temporary tag situation, I've died in Xul and then had to wait for e respawn of him before going on and doing lloth. I assume that the temporary tag would work untill the next reset of that server.

That's the best Idea I've heard.

as far as loot goes, I haven't been to the hells, but I do not want the server to be saturated with rares. You will just have to rebalence the server... again.

On another note. how long does it even take to get to the hells with a moderatly equiped party?

It takes 2-3 seconds to go to hell depending on the speed of your PC but if you go there with a moderately equipped party prepare to have your head handed back to you on a plate with some garnish (if you're lucky).