|
Post by dodrudon on Jan 28, 2007 10:15:04 GMT
Can unarmed monks be reworked? There's only one reason not to go kamas instead: so your weapons don't get eaten. Kama monks get more attacks, weapon buffs, and one more equipment slot.
Unarmed monks don't get GMWs (slightly offset by higher enchant on gloves), FWs or Darkfire, no shield (even dexers get shields), no bonus feats, no effective special abilities (more on that later), absolute crud for crit range (can't get more than 19-20), and one less item slot (gloves).
Quivering Palm and Ki Strike are totally useless. They're based on the Wis stat, so you basically have to choose between having effective special abilities and AC, or AB, but not both. And when you do go high in Wis, you can't hit the enemy.... Also, most mobs are mind immune anyways. Wholeness of body cures very little HP compared to the HP you eventually end up with at high levels.
What you do get is SR (which is useless if you multiclass), speed (keep running into walls but that's fine), and a huge number of attacks per round (but kama users get that too). I can't think of anything else.
Perhaps Wholeness of Body can be improved, change Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm abilities, and lengthen Empty Body's effects?
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Jan 28, 2007 15:15:13 GMT
I'll be making another pass over class abilities when I add the quasiclasses. If you have specific suggestions, though, they belong in the Class Customization forums suggestions threads - that's where I'll look when I update. Funky
|
|
|
Post by Master Jaxx on Jan 28, 2007 17:59:48 GMT
Stunning fist ignores Mind Immunity btw, though if they are crit immune it does not.
|
|
|
Post by dodrudon on Jan 28, 2007 22:36:05 GMT
Ah okay, thanks. Looks like that thread hasn't been updated since November
|
|
|
Post by dodrudon on Jan 31, 2007 17:58:55 GMT
Let's start a discussion.
Is there anything anybody would like to see added to unarmed monks?
A monk's role: lots and lots of attacks, but each one does little damage, but it adds up, also is perfectly healthy, very speedy, relies completely on own abilities for defense (no armor, no shield, wears robes, etc)
Maybe, required Weapon Focus Unarmed and 16 or 20 levels of monk before level 20 to get the bonuses. I'd really like to see stunning fist's DC changed to be based on monk levels, or, preferably, str/dex mod. I'd also like to see Empty Body get an extended length, to turn(s)/level at some level, then eventually unlimited use for strength builds (to offset their lack of shield, AC, and glove slot). For dex builds (maybe require SC V for these), maybe a damage shield, elemental/physical immunities of some sort, special immunities like shadowdancer, but more limited and in character, extra attacks, and/or increased concealment value.
For strength builds, this would increase them defensively (for not having armor, dex ac, shield, bracers), and extra attacks or a damage shield would help a dex build offensively (damage shield not as much, because they would preferably be avoiding most attacks).
Wholeness of Body is completely useless (for me, so far, maybe not in 20 levels or so). I like somebody's suggestion of changing it to a greater restore, it fits in with the monk's image as perfectly healthy. Maybe also change it to be useable once every 3 or 4 minutes.
Stunning fist could also be converted to be useable as special abilities, gaining more varieties as you level. For instance, adding elemental and exotic damage to attacks for wis-based rounds, adding an extra attack, etc.
|
|
|
Post by lala on Jan 31, 2007 19:52:27 GMT
Put my suggestion for unarmed monks in the ability suggestion topic sometime back, best place to put ability changes I would say.
|
|
|
Post by dodrudon on Feb 1, 2007 0:29:30 GMT
I'll look it up. I wanted to start a discussion, and the suggestions thread isn't the place to do it.
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 1, 2007 1:59:38 GMT
I'll look it up. I wanted to start a discussion, and the suggestions thread isn't the place to do it. Someone understands! ;D Funky
|
|
|
Post by Master Jaxx on Feb 1, 2007 6:05:18 GMT
Since I've made monks since. . . well as long as I can recall I've got some things to say. For a time I was pretty bummed about the lack of damage output by unarmed monks and at times when I still play them it does take longer to kill stuff in most cases. Crit immune mobs is usually when they get a chance to shine for the most part. Having around 7 -8 attacks depending on your build is kinda like dual-weilding and since the threat range is not that good it doesn't matter at all vs. a crit immune mob. Now, recently I've realized that defensively monks are at the top of their game the way HG is at present. So, in many ways I think having the great defense they have is the trade off for the lack of damage. However, the way things are now in the Hells or at least what has been done at present most things are not very resistant or immune to physical damage. If you take that and the fact that some mobs are crit immune the damage has been swung back towards monks in some instances. It would be interesting to see how a monk would fair if they could aquire the Improved Stunning Fist feats to increase their stunning fist DC but the problem is you'd lose out on taking GRT DEX or GRT STR depending on what type you are (STR or DEX). Thus, a poor ab and the inability to hit things. Improved Stunning Fist can add up to +20 to the Stunning Fist DC. I have never bothered making that type of monk simply because the lack of ab would make it pointless. As far as STR Monks go. I've made one and he relies upon Empty Body in order to stay alive. His ac is rather deplorable. . . 116 iirc. I gave it a shot to see how'd it go and the advantages do not out weigh the disadvantages. Unlimited uses of Empty Body sounds cool but I'm not really sure what could be done here for the STR based Monkey I've given these things a lot of thought and I have posted in the ability changes thread before. I know too that Funky has given it much thought as he has for all class balancing. All and all though, I think the lack of damage is what you get since you get such good defenses. However, it would be nice to see Stunning Fist become a bit more of a "Support" ability to stun enemies so the hard hitting WM's can crack them with criticals. . . Those are my thoughts at present.
|
|
|
Post by thedomicron on Feb 1, 2007 7:44:23 GMT
i think it'd be interesting to make monk legendary level progression similar to maybe rdd's. for instance you take a seeminly infeasable or impractical series of feats and make them requisites for scripted bonuses.
so like for improved stunning fist, higher levels would increase stun duration, dc, and ab.
on the other side, you could also go a defensive route w/ imp spell resistance. have it raise ac, self conceal uses.
it would also make it interesting if stunning fist made enemies more prone to certain attacks, to make monks more popular in groups. say, stunned enemies have lower saves or something.
|
|
|
Post by dodrudon on Feb 1, 2007 8:04:45 GMT
Ah that's an interesting idea, you could either go offensive or defensive route. Dex monks could go offensive while str monks could go defensive, or vice versa if you really wanted to specialize.
Stunning Fist lowering enemy immunities might be a fun idea, wis rounds, 5% to all elements and/or 10% to physical.
I'll post some concrete ideas after I get more than 8 hours of sleep, so probably not for quite a while...
|
|
|
Post by lala on Feb 1, 2007 14:11:44 GMT
Here is what I put into the ability suggestion topic:
Idea to help the unarmed monk using similar concept to the AA. At certain monk levels the Stunning Fist now has spell like abilities related to the Bigby line of spells but still uses 1 stunning fist so it is limited to monk lvls per day. It is resisted against at a check against the Monk's level + 10 + d20, to a maximum of 70 + d20. Duration can be fixed to 5 rounds. Still requires a successful hit.
At Monk lvl 20 Stunning Fist does Bigby Interposing Hand At Monk lvl 30 Stunning Fist does the above + Bigby Forceful Hand At Monk 40 Stunning Fist does the above + Bigby Grasping Hand At Monk 50 Stunning Fist does the above + Bigby Clenched Fist At Monk 55 Stunning Fist does the above + Bigby Crushing Hand
This fits nicely in with Groo's support idea for stunning fist. Cheers Lala
|
|
|
Post by Master Jaxx on Feb 2, 2007 0:01:54 GMT
;D ;D I like this discussion I really like the idea Domi a la RDD. Taking those Improved Stunning Fist Feats to get certain bonuses. Very good stuff! I kinda wish Quivering Palm was useful as well. It has no effect on anything at 20 CR (Challenge Rating) and up. The feat description states this but unless it is an extremely low magic world this feat is totally and utterly useless. I have no idea if it's hard coded but I think it would be nice to see the feat serve some kind of purpose. Only thing I could think of is maybe changing it to where it will work against any CR and still have it function normally for anything crit immune. I liked the idea of an actual "Dim Mak" monk. From what I understand the STR artifact has a death touch effect as it's use. Or maybe quivering palm could have some kind of paralysis effect. The theory of Dim Mak being that if a certain pressure point is hit just right then it will either cause death or paralysis. Atm DC is determined by 10 + 1/2 total char lvls a la lvl 40 char + wis modifier. Take lvl 60 into account, 10+ 30 + wis modifier = whatever. That is if any scaling could be done to reflect this. Most of my monks or at least the majority, usually have a modifier of 6 or higher so I think the average DC could end up being around 46 or so +. What do you guys think of these ideas?
|
|
|
Post by thedomicron on Feb 2, 2007 0:56:33 GMT
QP might be made to work when the enemy is stunned, so you could make it unlimited uses but only on stunned enemies. means you'd be limited with the number of enemies you could try to QP/day unless you had an illithid shifter around to help you out
|
|
|
Post by lala on Feb 2, 2007 2:07:01 GMT
I like the idea of the Monk's abilities becoming progressive. With that in mind here is another thought:
At certain levels the monks mind immunity increases in power, to the extent that a lvl 55 monk has equal mind immunity to the Wisdom artifact.
BTW, when the ideas are concluded we should post the best ones in the ability suggestion topic. I am not saying mine are the best with that statement ;D
|
|