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Post by lala on Mar 25, 2007 13:18:40 GMT
With the discipline checks in hells, the importance of having discipline is very important. However 2 classes if going for their maximum abilities cannot get near even a wizard that splashes another class at 40.
The maximum either of these 2 classes is 23, thats 20 less than a wizard with splash class.
Could a solution be implemented that enables both of these classes to get some disc bonus from an ability?
A simpler solution for Assassin would be to make honing weapon require only between 25-29 assassin levels so a splash class can be taken at the end. Unfortunately such a simple solution cannot work for SD.
Thanks Lala
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Post by Balduvard on Mar 25, 2007 17:26:42 GMT
Assassins can already hone their weapons at L20. It is therefore your choice as to whether you want to sacrifice your discipline in order to acquire the devastating critical (which is arguably the point of the class). In order to counteract that, you can sacrifice feats and gear selection in order to boost your discipline to a respectable amount (~90 as a dexer, ~110 as str). That's not to say that such an addition is out of the question, but I'll leave that to Funky's balancing.
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Post by lala on Mar 25, 2007 19:20:29 GMT
Yeah I meant Dev Crit. I would say its impossible to hit 90 Discipline with the skill penalties when your base Discipline is only 23.
Its pretty tight for dex builds that get 43 base, even taking esf.
But more to the point should Assassin suffer a lot more on discipline than say casters? Same could be said about SD as well.
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Post by Balduvard on Mar 25, 2007 22:39:49 GMT
A pure assassin suffers the same as a pure caster when it comes to discipline. Both must use a splash class in order to gain higher discipline. The problem with the assassin is that it cannot take a splash class without losing it's abilty to make devastating criticals. Shadowdancers on the other hand can take less then the maximum amount of pre-legendary levels in their control class without too much penalty (unless you really need that extra attack per round).
So the question then becomes, "do we allow the assassin to take a splash class without destroying their primary ability, do we compensate the class with the abilities that allowing them to take the splash class would provide, or do we leave the discipline where it is as a class weakness for having the single ability that no other class can acquire?". The balance has to be found somewhere, which in my eyes is acceptable where it is now--but again, I'm not the one that does most of the balancing around here.
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Post by lala on Mar 25, 2007 22:51:38 GMT
A pure assassin suffers the same as a pure caster when it comes to discipline. Both must use a splash class in order to gain higher discipline. The problem with the assassin is that it cannot take a splash class without losing it's abilty to make devastating criticals. Shadowdancers on the other hand can take less then the maximum amount of pre-legendary levels in their control class without too much penalty (unless you really need that extra attack per round). So the question then becomes, "do we allow the assassin to take a splash class without destroying their primary ability, do we compensate the class with the abilities that allowing them to take the splash class would provide, or do we leave the discipline where it is as a class weakness for having the single ability that no other class can acquire?". The balance has to be found somewhere, which in my eyes is acceptable where it is now--but again, I'm not the one that does most of the balancing around here. I agree balance has to be thought of and you make great point, but the issue is an assassin would never keep their armour,wpn or shield depending upon which boss is being attacked. Dev crit is a bit pointless if you lose it (due to wpn loss) or your armour every fight. Every sensible player will take a splash of monk with caster so as to ensure they dont suffer the discipline problems when looking to do hells. Talking to a few other experienced players they agree with me, as it stands I am parking my current Assassin build and going to do another dex build because its just not playable in lower level of hells due to the very low discipline on a dev crit assassin.
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Post by sabregirl on Mar 26, 2007 3:23:51 GMT
As to "every sensible caster" taking a splash of monk for discipline . . .look no further than Aessa silvermoon, pure wizard and demigodess. And really quite stable, now epic skill focus discipline might be helpful, though for a caster in the back of the group, at least not in the thick of things can probably get away without. As for a dex assasin and discipline, ESF dsicipline should prevent really horrible problems - assuming you max disc at the last possible preepic level and use as much disc gear as you can and have a bard etc. A str assasin would get his or her str modifier of course. Repeated loss of weapons or armor could be annoying. Though with ESF discipline and good gear you should be in no worse shape than a caster and my cleric was able to avoid repeated loss of armor/weapon in most cases with a bit of gear modification, even when critters spawned on top of her. Discipline in some classes is tricky but in my opinion one of the lesser concerns about balancing in the hells. -S
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Post by lala on Mar 26, 2007 12:29:10 GMT
It doesnt really bother me too much, dev crit assassin can do other areas if not hells.
Sabre the maximum a dev crit assassin can reach with esf on Discipline is 33, add say 5 for str to 38. Maximum skill points from gear is 50 thats 88... then take the skill penalties. Your under 80 and meant to be attacking.
Still I dont mind, just a shame I cannot use an Assassin throughtout the levels. I will just do the same tactic that everyone does for their dex lock opener in hells ;D
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Post by ekstroem on Mar 26, 2007 12:52:41 GMT
It doesnt really bother me too much, dev crit assassin can do other areas if not hells. Sabre the maximum a dev crit assassin can reach with esf on Discipline is 33, add say 5 for str to 38. Maximum skill points from gear is 50 thats 88... then take the skill penalties. Your under 80 and meant to be attacking. Aren't you forgetting the extra points you get from maxing disc cross-class in LLs? You can add 10 (20 levels cross-class) points to your disc skill, which will give you ~42 with ESF at level 60. Add 50 from items and you're ready to go to hells. Not that that is a lot for a front line fighter but at least it's doable. My DEX assassin has a naked disc of 41 including esf disc. Cheers, Claus
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Post by lala on Mar 26, 2007 14:18:09 GMT
It doesnt really bother me too much, dev crit assassin can do other areas if not hells. Sabre the maximum a dev crit assassin can reach with esf on Discipline is 33, add say 5 for str to 38. Maximum skill points from gear is 50 thats 88... then take the skill penalties. Your under 80 and meant to be attacking. Aren't you forgetting the extra points you get from maxing disc cross-class in LLs? You can add 10 (20 levels cross-class) points to your disc skill, which will give you ~42 with ESF at level 60. Add 50 from items and you're ready to go to hells. Not that that is a lot for a front line fighter but at least it's doable. My DEX assassin has a naked disc of 41 including esf disc. Cheers, Claus k bud, but I am yet to see you play that assassin properly in hells as you have 2 pc accounts. Next time we do hells and have a group play it in melee on the Malbog lvl with me.... Look forward to see how you do
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Post by Delfestra Ruinvorn on Mar 26, 2007 18:44:25 GMT
I'm also a pure wizard myself, though I've only been through Stygia. You'll never see my wizard self splash anything.
Though, with my cleric self, even with splash pally/monk, and max discipline...Kytons still get me every single time. I'm even considering taking epic discipline for 60 just so I can stand closer to the meleers for healing purposes.
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Post by tyranlthixis on Mar 26, 2007 20:15:30 GMT
Actually we've taken an assassin to several layers of the hells and they did really well. The key is to avoid those monsters that your particular build is not suited to fight....a rule that applies to any build be it a pure wizard, caster cleric or DD. You couldn't take 4 dex assassins for example as "tanks" but a single dex assassin would be invaluable against monsters suited for dexers and help with general clean up with dev crit (since there are plenty of non crit immune monsters many of which are problematic to parties). Malbogue is one of the layers actually that a dex assassin would shine in.
There are only so many discipline checks in the hells and most of those monsters that use them are easily controlled if you use some strategy. Which leaves a handful of monsters that are harder to "control" most of which are found in the middle layers of the hells and not deep down. In short dex assassins don't really have that many unique problem that other dex builds don't have. Plus you could always make a strength assassin and have some unique strengths and weakness (conceal + dev crit etc). Again you wouldn't want all your tanks have the same build but thats never been a problem in any of the groups I've been in.
Tyran
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Post by lala on Mar 26, 2007 23:24:31 GMT
Just curious why some of you are so against this when an AA gets its optimum ability at 29 levels of its class.....
I guess it wasnt 30 because of the discipline? So why should Assassin be treated differently?
I am yet to find 1 person who will say they will play an Assassin lower down when the max discipline they will have on the last level of hells is 79.....
I can build every other type of dex (apart from the 30 SD) I would want to play and still hit 90 on that last level.
Kudos to anyone who does manage the assassin on the last 3 levels of hells.
Edit: The only argument against not raising it I can see is balance reason and thats fair enough, but please lets not try to say that a dex assassin is truly a feasible thing for hells.
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Post by Balduvard on Mar 27, 2007 1:29:33 GMT
lets not try to say that a dex assassin is truly a feasible thing for hells. I see a challenge.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 27, 2007 1:29:56 GMT
Im inclined to agree with ty. They do sick damage, even without dev crit. Just how far down have you been? Biggest problem I see for thm is kytons (and a few bosses), and they are scarce after 3, with a few cameos her and there. You can expect to see more roles for dexers in the Hells soon in any case. Funky
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Post by lala on Mar 27, 2007 5:50:14 GMT
Ah thinking it through it would overpower the class if changed anyway. Why bother playing control class rogue if you could do everything as assassin I guess. So even though its annoying for assassin, I now agree the way it is at moment makes sense.
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