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Post by gruntgruntson on Apr 2, 2007 0:11:00 GMT
Just wanted to put my 0.02 in: I purposely avoided the Hells when they 1st opened. Mainly because I thought I would wait for some people to do some "recon" for me The first people in have it tough. They have to figure out what to do, where to go, what NOT to do .. what dmg, immunes etc ... Also, thre are bound to be bugs, unintended effects etc. Big respect to the people who risked everything to find out what is down there. The few times I have been i have been lucky to go with people who could tell me what's what. You didn't have that luxury. Yes, When I see the PC scry with a party of 10 Uber-vets/DMs headed into the lower lvls, I know they are getting l00tz I could not dream of, but they also have put the time effort and risk in to deserve them. So if I say "the DMs Hells group", it is with a little jealousy of their toon-building skills, their playing skills to acquire the right equipment, and know how to use it .. areas I still lack in. But mainly with Big Props! These are the people to look up to! Good luck in the Lower Levels! Let me know how you get on (and what I should expect when I get there!) When I first arrived on HG, I was a little surprised to find that the DMs played characters in the world, and was suspicious that they may use their position to boost themselves and their friends. I now know this is not the case. When the main DMs have trade boards, asking for items they could easily just add to their accounts, you know things are OK.
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Post by cardinal on Apr 2, 2007 0:33:27 GMT
The real fun is in the challenge, it will be those that dont understand that will make such claims, and as a result miss the rewards.
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Post by bkelowna on Apr 2, 2007 1:52:13 GMT
How unfortunate! The orginal poster, appears to only have wanted not to exclude builds, from future parties, that may be different than the first party to have finished hells. Yet, it devolved to this, how sad.
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Post by dodrudon on Apr 2, 2007 3:20:29 GMT
How's it devolved? Every one seems to be civil enough to me....
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Post by chainlink on Apr 2, 2007 9:32:19 GMT
Whilst there is some flexibility in Hells party make-up (especially for the first few layers) you will need certain classes to effectively complete further down and based on what I've seen so far this will include - 1. A bard, the more bard levels the better, thanks Atomic 2. Str tanks, at least a couple as nobody is unkillable 3. One or two shifters for their manticore damage output and medusa petrification ability 4. Cleric(s), for implosions and healing 5. A druid for shunt and healing although (we've completed quite far down without a druid using brute force, nukes and decent gear) 6. A caster with epic wall, you can live without this but it makes some encounters a lot more painful with lots of running, screaming and dieing Optional - An opener, if not you're going to spend a load of time oggling unopenable BUR chests (trust me this is not funny!). Whilst there are other builds that add to this missing any of the above listed will cause you problems at some stage requiring a tactical rethink or slowing your run to a crawl. One other thing that I would strongly suggest is to do two runs sequentially with the same party and pool the loot as this creates a decent chance of everybody in the group getting something good (and that's why you went there isn't it?) unless you're just all after the tag?
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Post by alandrian on Apr 2, 2007 22:06:53 GMT
Dont forget AAs, they can dish out twice the ammount of damage any other party members do on a run, and keep things at -10ab with bigs. And they're good rezzers for fruity bards You do twice the damage as a shifter in hell? A lot damage from AAs is elemental and many creature are immune to quite a lot of that. Most of the times its physical damage that counts in hell. A load of spikes might do more than 600 damage/round in hell. I think its quite hybris to say you deal twice the damage of a shifter on hell creatures on average.
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Post by Stormchaser on Apr 2, 2007 22:32:46 GMT
I will say that an AA can easily out damage a shifters spikes .. maybe not double the damage but equal and sometimes more damage yes. Agreed hell creatures are immune to elements but they are not 100% immune to them all ... 20% immunity would come up as immune on the creature info. If for example an AA hit something with 20% fire immunity with 50 points, they still take 40 fire damage from a db bow and then the regular damage will hit for ... say 55 points of damage .... thats just under 100 points of damage per arrow ... times the amount of arrows shot in a round ... equals at the very least 500 damage around, not even including critical hits. An upper limit on damage per round could go as high as 1000 damage a round. So don't right off us AA's yet!
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Post by Balduvard on Apr 2, 2007 22:37:55 GMT
Granted the AA has to have some semblance of intelligence to know what is or isn't immune to what elements. The only thing that has to go through a shifter's mind is whether or not their next spike spam will cause them to die from kickback
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Post by sabregirl on Apr 2, 2007 23:37:19 GMT
Unlike the AA the shifter can also offer spawn control in the form of stoning, occasionally stunning even domming at times, which requires some semblence of intelligence to figure out what to use when. Which isn't mind/petrification immune which kickback is going to kill you and/or the party etc. Relying only on manticore spikes make a poor shifter contribution. Dragon form can even subsitute for a strength tank in a pinch. That said AAs are a great asset to a hells party. Speed, damage and ability to read arcane scrolls make them very useful but in my experience, on many levels you can't directly replace the shifter spot with an AA. -S
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Post by dodrudon on Apr 3, 2007 1:15:54 GMT
Granted the AA has to have some semblance of intelligence to know what is or isn't immune to what elements. The only thing that has to go through a shifter's mind is whether or not their next spike spam will cause them to die from kickback Actually what goes through MY head is either 1) "I hope they don't hate me so much that they don't rez me" and 2) "Is Phal still alive? Is he still spamming healing circles? excellent" So if I die it's Phal's fault.
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Post by zerragon on Apr 10, 2007 8:32:51 GMT
A str tank can also be substitued with a dex tank with con artifact (knockdown immunity). The key is that if a pit fiend gets in the middle of party and knocks down everyone, you need to have someone who stands up to them and can rez or whatever while the others are pacified. Also, to supplement Chainlinks post, a good hell caster would be an even better asset if equipped with epic/leg illusion for weirds, as well as lvl 9 grapples. Seeing raks, maels and fiends die screaming to weirds is a pleasure. My favourite thing about hells, is that many classes are needed in good teamwork to succeed. And from Maladomini and out, you need Perfect teamwork. Asmodean, here we come
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