The Stalwart Elven Slinging Rogue - 40 Rogue

[schlix]

Well, here is my take on the pure rogue, I am posting it mainly to receive some feedback, especially on the questions at the bottom…but any comments are welcome. Its not too different from other rogue builds posted here, but the subrace does lend some benefits - I used Undying for its stat & feat bonuses, and because its the best subrace I currently have (over atomie). I chose sling to generate more sneaks during combat, while changing to a finessable melee weapon for tanking. Plenty of skill points as well, with 18 INT & subrace bonuses.

The goal is to create a rogue that can accomplish all the standard rogue duties, and also be useful in combat (my strategies are described below). Especially in Hells.

The Stalwart Elven Slinging Rogue - 40 Rogue

"Undying" (secret Beyond UltraRare) - requires Elf
- STR +2, DEX +2, CON +4, INT +2, WIS +2, CHA +2, free feat: Dodge, free feat: Luck of Heroes, free feat: Great Fortitude, free feat: Iron Will, free feat: Lightning Reflexes
- Undying receive +3 skill points per legendary level.


Str 8 (10)
Dex 18 (20) [46]
Con 14 (18)
Wis 8 (10)
Int 16 (18)
Cha 8 (10)


1 Bullheaded
2
3 Shield Proficiency
4 +1DEX
5
6 Expertise
7
8 +1DEX
9 Weapon Focus (Sling)
10 Improved Evasion
11
12 +1DEX, Weapon Finesse (or Imp Crit: Sling)
13 Defensive Roll
14
15 Toughness
16 +1DEX, Slippery Mind
17
18 SF: Disable Trap
19 Crippling Strike
20 +1DEX
21 Epic Weapon Focus (Sling)
22
23
24 +1DEX, Gr Dex 1, Epic Dodge
25
26
27 Gr Dex 2
28 +1DEX, ESF: Search
29
30 Armor Skin
31
32 +1DEX, Skill Mastery
33 SC1
34
35
36 +1DEX, SC2, Opportunist
37
38
39 ESF: Discipline
40 +1DEX, SC3
41
42 +1DEX, Legendary Luck
43
44 +1DEX
45 [+1DEX] Legendary Will
46 +1DEX
47
48 +1DEX, Legendary Fort
49
50 +1DEX [+1DEX]
51 Legendary Weapon Focus (Sling)
52 +1DEX
53
54 +1DEX, LSA Discipline
55 [+1DEX]
56 +1DEX
57 SC4
58 +1DEX
59
60 +1DEX [+1DEX], SC5

- feats in italics are class feats


Saves @40(naked; Fort/Ref/Will) 26/34/18
Saves @60(max) 64/77/60

Hit Points (@60) 1,020

AB (@60)
15(pre-epic)+10(epic)+5(feats)+12(LL)+ 18(Base Dex)+6(Max Dex)+3(Craft Wpn)+5(Opportunist)+20(Magic) = 94 (max)

AC (@60)
10(base) +3(studded)+16(armor)+19(Max Dex)+16(nat)+20(Dodge&Haste)+12(Tum)+16(defl)+16(shield)+2(Armor Skin)+3(Craft Armor)+1(Dodge) = 134 (139 w/ Expertise; 144 effective w/ Epic Dodge)



Skill Points (@60)
44(lvl1)+708+80(LL bonus)+60(subrace bonus) = 892

Skills to max (can max 14 skills w/ 10 pts left over; ones in bold are primary, all others are options):

bluff/ craft armor/ craft weapon/ disable trap/ discipline / hide/ listen/ lore/ open lock/ parry/ pick pocket/ search/ set trap/ tumble/ umd


Build Notes

- chose Bullheaded over Strong Soul for discipline boost
- primary weapon is sling
- Weapon Finesse taken for secondary (melee) weapon
- dump all skill points into discipline @ lvl54
- no Epic Prowess (effectively lose 2AB)
- maxed bluff (119 @ lvl60) would assist in effectively boosting AC


Questions

1. After reading the description, it seems Opportunist adds +5 ab (max)? If so, then add +1 to my max AB calc…

2. I am considering omitting Shield Proficiency in place of an item granting this feat. With such an item, does the shield remain equipped even after the item is removed?

3. Weapon finesse is taken so I can switch to a melee weapon for tanking. It seems tanking with a sling wouldn’t be a good idea, with the penalties & AoO’s (tho ive never used a sling as a primary weapon). Point Blank Shot would alleviate this somewhat. Furthermore, I like the versatility of using a slashing (ex.: handaxe) or piercing (ex.: shortsword) weapon, albeit at –5AB. Comments please?

4. An option would be to take Strong Soul, drop Legendary Luck, & take Legendary Hardened Soul + one feat (since LSA Discipline is lost also; feat would probably be either Armor Skin or Epic Prowess). Saves would become 67/74/63. The question is, whats more important, 22 discipline or the save adjustments & AC/AB boost?

[gruntgruntson]

To take Legendary Luck, one must take Luck of Heroes at 1st Level.

[schlix]

undying grants luck of heroes as a bonus feat...hmm can i take legendary luck this way? i assumed so but maybe im wrong...

[gruntgruntson]

Ah, sorry, missed that.
Yes, I assume (not having Undying to test with) that the free feats are there to be prerequisites fro LL saves feats.

[Acaos]

schlix said:

1. After reading the description, it seems Opportunist adds +5 ab (max)? If so, then add +1 to my max AB calc…

Correct.

2. I am considering omitting Shield Proficiency in place of an item granting this feat. With such an item, does the shield remain equipped even after the item is removed?

No. There is an item that can grant you the feat (one of the Minauros Pandects) but it is -very- hard to get.

3. Weapon finesse is taken so I can switch to a melee weapon for tanking. It seems tanking with a sling wouldn’t be a good idea, with the penalties & AoO’s (tho ive never used a sling as a primary weapon). Point Blank Shot would alleviate this somewhat. Furthermore, I like the versatility of using a slashing (ex.: handaxe) or piercing (ex.: shortsword) weapon, albeit at –5AB. Comments please?

An excellent idea if you can afford the pre-LL feat. Note that there are a couple of items out there with Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat on them, I believe (but certainly no UR-quality items).

4. An option would be to take Strong Soul, drop Legendary Luck, & take Legendary Hardened Soul + one feat (since LSA Discipline is lost also; feat would probably be either Armor Skin or Epic Prowess). Saves would become 67/74/63. The question is, whats more important, 22 discipline or the save adjustments & AC/AB boost?

If you're Undying, take advantage of getting Luck of Heroes for free, and take Legendary Luck. 22 Discipline is huge and I would definitely stick with that. You can probably live without Epic Prowess thanks to Opportunist, but if you can squeeze it in, you'll want Armor Skin.

You'll have 63 (base) + 50 (equipment) + 10 (Int) + 2 (synergy from Set Trap) = 125 Disable Trap. You could consider taking Skill Focus (Disable Trap) as a pre-epic feat to reach the 127 cap, which would open up an epic feat for Armor Skin (by not taking ESF). I'd consider dropping Improved Expertise for it; with only Great Dex 2 you'll be hurting a bit on AB.

Also, you can't get 19 AC from your shield since you have too much Dex to use the Pentavite Shield or the Shield of the Sayarten. And the maximum combined total from Studded Leather and Dex is 22 (3 + 19), so you're overestimating armor dexterity bonus by 3.

Acaos

[schlix]

These are some good comments, thanks

Ive modified the build as follows:

- omitted Improved Expertise & ESF: Disable Traps
- added SF: Disable Traps & Armor Skin
- corrected AC bonuses from armor & shield
- noted Epic Dodge under AC calculation

[scarabamassa]

well, i'm making this build but replaced kukri for short sword as primary weapon and sling as secondary but i have some questions.
I'm using kender subrace (halfling) and i noticed that the ab bonus from opportunist and the str damage/extra attack from cripppling strike are working properly with the sling and short sword but the +1 to threat range for weapons is only workin for the sling. It doesn't appear for short sword.
both short sword and sling are small weapons.
so do i have to use a tiny weapon with halfling for the cripple strike works properly? why sling works and short sword don't?

Thanks

Scaraba

[..[Sirloin]..]

Yes. You need to use smaller weapon than your size for the feats to work.

If you're small sized you need tiny weapon. If you're medium sized you need small weapon and If you're large sized you need medium weapon.

At least It's what I've understood.

[scarabamassa]

sirloin said:

Yes. You need to use smaller weapon than your size for the feats to work.

If you're small sized you need tiny weapon. If you're medium sized you need small weapon and If you're large sized you need medium weapon.

At least It's what I've understood.

well this is the rule for finesse but as far as i understood, you just need light weapons in light armor for the feats work and both sling and short sword are light.. what is strange is the sling work and the short sword not

thanks for the reply

Scaraba

[phalthallus]

For some reason a number of people seem to be missing this (rather critical piece of information in the Ability Change thread here:

Light Weapons:
For the below Crippling Strike and Opportunist bonuses, light weapons are those smaller than your character, PLUS the following weapons: Sling, Light Crossbow, and Morningstar.

So as Sirloin said, if you're small-sized (gnome, halfling, or something similar because of your subrace) you must use tiny weapons, or one of the other options mentioned.

[scarabamassa]

phalthallus said:

For some reason a number of people seem to be missing this (rather critical piece of information in the Ability Change thread here:

Light Weapons:
For the below Crippling Strike and Opportunist bonuses, light weapons are those smaller than your character, PLUS the following weapons: Sling, Light Crossbow, and Morningstar.

So as Sirloin said, if you're small-sized (gnome, halfling, or something similar because of your subrace) you must use tiny weapons, or one of the other options mentioned.

ohh damn, i must have lost this in the way.. now i'll see what i can do with the build
thank you

Scaraba