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Post by rtsang on Jan 26, 2008 10:18:36 GMT
I like monk class and I have been thinking for a workable str monk since it's lacking ac. Here it goes a high ac str monk build, the trickey part on this build is to get max monk levels for damage fist and empty body but still makes DD as the control class, Pally is a good fit to fill the gap. Race: Dwarf, Subbie: Duergar (favor class monk), immune to stun and poison Str 16 Dex 14 (13 for Dodge) Con 14 Int 10 All abilities points goes to str through (Level 1-60). Control Class: DD Pre-Epic 7 Monk/2 Pally/10 DD/1 Monk (max tumble here) Dodge, Toughness, Blind fight, W Focus (Unarmed), Imp Crit (Unarmed), Power Att, Great Cleave Post-Epic 9 Monk/10 DD/ 1 Monk (max disc/tumble) EWF (Unarmed), E Prowess, Armor Skin, G Str I, II, III, IV DD Bonus feat: Overwhelming Crit (Unarmed) , Dev Crit (Unarmed) LL Feats: LWF (Unarmed Attack), G Str V - X Pro: - High AC as str build, 20 more natural AC from str bonus (DD as control class feature) - High damage on monk fist (1d20) - Even higher damage on fist (18-20/x3), thanks to Over and Dev crit. - ~26 physical damage immunity (str bonus, DD feature) - 12 DD damage reduction from DD - Stoneguard (DD feature) - Immune to Crit as long as the character stays in defensive stance mode (Not sure if LLevels increase the count of use for stance). - Empty body (50% concealment in usable duration) - 145% Monk speed - More damages and HP than dex monks Con: Concealment during is limited. Not sure if saves is enough (although taking pally for divine grace, need to max cha) No keen compare to monk as control class build No extra damage compare to monk as control class build The key part for this build is to make use of Str bonus to complement the lacking AC. Although the AC is on par to Dex builds, but since it lack of concealments, there it counts on more hp and damage immunities/reduction over not taking hits.
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Post by jalking on Jan 26, 2008 10:56:08 GMT
Did break your AC down to see how bad it is in UR gear 10 - base 20 - natural 15 - ur robe without dex mod 16 - deflection 20 - dodge+haste 8 - tumble (no progress in LL) 2 - armor skin 4 - wisdom (from the +12 wis from items assuming you don't put any skillpoints into wis at creation) 8 - dex modifier 0 - shield modifier (19 for Pentavite, 16 for large shields) 0 - skill modifier (craft armor provides +1 to ac per 40 fully modified ranks) 3 - class ac bonus from 18 monk 0 - size modifier
98 ac!!
Am I miscalculating anything here?.. 98 ac won't make you survive for long anywhere in LL even with consealment and damage reduction..
/Jalking
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Post by rtsang on Jan 26, 2008 11:27:04 GMT
Sorry but I don't have a chance to level this character out to 60. Since I am new to this server, this is only done on paper. The theory behind this is if dex monk works, this one should work . Interesting, by comparing to a pure dex monk: 1. 5AC (less monk levels) 2. Dex mod AC, Assuming 27 AC gained from dex monk which has around 64 dex, this build has 20 str bonus + 7 dex bonus. This would even out. 3. 2AC (wis mod), assuming regular dex monk put 14 on wis. 4. 4AC (tumble) So I think this build is around 16 AC less than a regular dex monk. This build can tweak a bit to increase the AC, any input is welcome. I have thought of these: Issue #1, this is the biggest hit for 5AC not taking more monk levels. But this is comparing to a pure monk, most dex monk build has only 30-35 monk levels. So 4AC would be more realistic. I would say the DR and HP makes it up and wear more resist gears. I am not sure this would makes it up or not since I haven't even do any immo runs, no ideas on it... Issue #2 is not an issue if I calculated it correctly. Issue #3 Wis mod - I think this can't be solve unless using some UR/BUR subrace which increase str 4/6 so that I can put more points on wis at start up. Other than that, this is not solvable. Issue #4 By using one of the subbie which has blindfight/dodge/toughness which I can take blooded at level 1 and solve the problem 4 by taking LSA Tumble. This would reduce str bonus but the max ac from str is 20, so I believe it still ok. So far I am level 30 and still doing ok, I have around 70 AC non-buff. I am not sure if I have the top gear at my level, also provided that dex/wis is not max yet. Sometimes I got hit quite often but it seems as long as I progress more DD levels, the damage not as much as before. I tried to put on more regen items and I definitely don't need to heal that often in a team. I really have no ideas if this build would work in Hell or even immo runs (unless someone helps me to level fast and see) .
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Post by rtsang on Jan 26, 2008 11:31:19 GMT
I found out what I missed, the natural AC bonus which this build counts on. Does natural AC has cap at all (which I don't think there is)? If the cap is only 20 then this build won't work because the gear might already provide at least 12 AC which makes the str bonus won't help much. Can someone confirm this?
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Post by lala on Jan 26, 2008 11:40:51 GMT
All AC cap at 20. However Dodge is a bit different that if penalties are applied and you had AC over 20, this then can be added on to the +20 cap. You may have dodge of 25, but you can only have 20ac due to cap, the other 5 will only apply if your AC is lowered by some means, so to get the 5 extra your AC would need to be lowered by 5.
Cheers Lala
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Post by MightyKhan on Jan 26, 2008 11:48:47 GMT
afaik, the DD strength bonus to natural armor does not stack with anything, rather, it's the highest of this bonus and the bonus on your amulet that will count. so thats where you miss another 16 points (assuming the dex monk wears +16 amulet) also, the starting stats look a little strange: STR 16 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 10 WIS - CHA - if my calculations are correct, this leaves you another 8 points to distribute, and i would suggest STR 16 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 14 CHA 8 (6) as this leaves room for discipline, parry, tumble, listen base saves: fort 16, this is enough: with 14 con, and 6 cha, this will top out at 28 (and you need at least 25 in order to hit 60) refl 9, this needs boosting as its maxes at 21, epic reflexes should do the trick will 13, a small boost would be welcome, but its enough to hit 60 without any further boosts if you leave out the dev crit feats, you can fit in blooded, LSA tumble, epic reflexes and possibly take legendary armor skin at level 60. this will up your reflex save by 4, and ac by 6, but obviously lowers your offensive capabilities
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Post by crimsonbinome22 on Jan 26, 2008 12:12:41 GMT
I doubt the natural bonus would stack... I may be wrong, but I wouldn't think it would stack.
I've been thinking about a str monk for a while and I think the best way to build it is as hybrid tank of sorts. For it to work properly you would want a BUR sub that gave big bonuses to str, dex and wis. At creation put as many points as you can into str, dex and con and put the left overs into wis. Your restricted to robes anyway so you might as well make use of high dex mod you are allowed. Obviously your going to be sacrificing some offensive capabilities here but from what I've seen offensive capabilities are moot if you aren't alive to use them.
I'm not sure I like the idea of going half monk half DD. With 18 monk levels you only get 50% conceal (which is effectively 25% against blindfight enemies, ie: everything), and is no better than what you can get from feats (only the feats don't run out, which is another point, with 18 monk levels it ain't gonna be lasting long). As a str tank your AC is a abysmal so concealment is pretty much your lifeblood. Going pure monk you can get up to 80% conceal, which means effectively 64% or so of enemies attacks are missing. Going pure monk also nets you a bit of extra AC, due to the monk AC bonus (+1 every 5 levels, stacks with everything else).
On the 98 AC.... it's not going to cut it, without some concealment pretty much every attack is going to hit you. And hurt a lot.
Edit: For comparison purposes, my pure dex monk can reach 130 AC with UR gear, add +2 if there is a girdling cleric in the party. My build had a few mistakes so it wouldn't be so hard to sneak in a few more points as well.
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Post by crimsonbinome22 on Jan 26, 2008 12:28:23 GMT
Am I miscalculating anything here?.. Yes actually, that equals 106 AC . Still your right it isn't enough to keep you on your feet at desert, let alone anything harder. Small quantities of concealment and damage reduction from class splashes is nice, it's not going to be enough to keep you alive.
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Post by bort on Jan 26, 2008 13:19:04 GMT
Cool idea, I was thinking of doing something similar myself. The ac will be a big problem for the build later in the game though, with short duration conceal of only 50%.
If you want a STR monk with reasonable AC and good conceal, I'd suggest going mainly monk with a splash of DD, and dual wield dwarven waraxes to get 12 shield AC and a reasonable number of attacks. You'd lose the bonus unarmed damage fist monks get, but you'd gain the ability to recieve a number of weapon buffs which more than make up for it in terms of damage output (i.e. flame weapon, darkfire, greater magic weapon, deafening clang, cold weapon).
I made a 29 monk 9 ranger 2 dd STR build which would end up with 136 ac with the best gear in the mod and 2x demi and 69% conceal 2 times a day from empty body (at level 60 pre hells it'd have 123 ac in UR gear).
AC (60): 10 base +14 (ur robes) : 24 +6 (12 dex from items) : 30 +6 (12 wis from items) : 36 +12 (12 con mod DD shield ac) : 48 +20 (dodge (boots/bardsong/spell buffs)) : 68 +16 (amulet) : 84 +2 (armor skin) : 86 +12 (tumble ac) : 98 +2 (craft armor) : 100 +2 (girding epic on robes) : 102 +16 (ur deflection item) : 118 +5 (monk ac bonuses) : 123
AC (hells): +4 (+20 natural ac strongheart amulet) : 127 +4 (+20 asmo deflection arti) : 131 +1 (+15 robes) : 132 +2 (+2 dex and wis demix1) : 134 +2 (+2 dex and wis demix2) : 136
The ranger levels allow you to get improved two weapon fighting without putting 15 points into DEX for ambidexterity btw.
I made mine with Battlerager (UR subrace) but you could make it with a free subrace if you made a few compromises (probably a few points of AB).
I can post the build if you're interested.
-Bort
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Post by Master Jaxx on Jan 26, 2008 16:18:02 GMT
I've made several str monks. I have one that is Triple Demi atm 30 mnk/5DD/5 Hpr. I used Zenythri as the race but I originally built it with FA and I've even built the same with Arctic Dwarf (lvl 55 IIRC).
In retrospect one of the best ways to build a str monk is to make it pure. This way you can maximize your concealment duration/amount via Empty Body, maximize your innate Monk ac bonus and maximize your unarmed dmg bonus.
Also I tend to disagree about putting more in CON than WIS. WIS is an essential opportunity for more AC bonus. For a str monk I recommend using a Dwarf for an additional CON bonus, usually never going above 12 con total as a base stat. 14 WIS would be a baseline goal and anything higher would be optimal and anything lower would be unacceptable.
As far as the str monk I built, I suppose I could make "yet another monk" and make it pure but the combo I came up with has worked well for me and it has been a blast to play.
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Post by rtsang on Jan 26, 2008 16:55:54 GMT
Thanks for information, for dual wielding axe to gain shield AC, I think I won't do it even it sounds really cool because you don't look like a monk anymore (monk uses fist). Too bad the idea doesn't work out. The L.Armor skin idea is reallly cool, this turns 6AC (LAS) plus 4AC (LSA tumble) and give another 10AC. So 106 + 10 = 116AC, a little better. What's the min AC you need for Hell? Is there any other source can increase the AC on this build? Really want to make it work for hell... . Another idea is to go ftr as control class which grants epic-dodge which is nice and never happened on a str build on regular servers. Third choice is go 26 pally/5 hs/9 monk (choose a high cha subbie) use pally as control class and take Divine Shield. At LLevel pally gains 4 str/cha and HS can take two G. Cha as bonus feat. Also can take Divine Might to enhance damage. Not sure if the AC from divine shield will cap with other AC.
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Post by MightyKhan on Jan 26, 2008 17:14:10 GMT
you can wield a kama in your main hand and a dwarven waraxe in your offhand for quite an impressive amount of attacks, and your ab wouldnt be any lower than dualing waraxes, that is, only if you focus in both weapon types. and yes the divine shield ac is dodge ac currently, which means it stacks in the weird way lala explained
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Post by bort on Jan 26, 2008 18:31:20 GMT
Thanks for information, for dual wielding axe to gain shield AC, I think I won't do it even it sounds really cool because you don't look like a monk anymore (monk uses fist). Yeah, that's the downside, doesn't look as cool
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Post by rtsang on Jan 26, 2008 20:04:54 GMT
Just a thought, which kind of AC a PM class provide then? I guess it's natural AC but that stacks with items? So is DD str bonus AC consider as innate natural AC?
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Post by crimsonbinome22 on Jan 28, 2008 8:02:22 GMT
On the subject of waraxes, wouldn't you lose the special monk AB progression for using a non-monk weapon?
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