Baseborn Titan Fighter 50/WM 7/Rogue 3

[louisvilleslugger]

I wanted to make a fighter and I had the UR subrace: baseborn titan and not much else for subbies.

Here's my design.

Please let me know of any improvments you recommend, or errors I have made.
====================================================

50 Fighter
7 Weaponmaster
3 Rogue

Race:
Human, subrace: Baseborn Titan (+5str, +2cha, free feat: great smite)

Starting Stats:
Str 17(22)
Con 14
Dex 13
Wis 8
Int 14
Cha 8(10)

1. Rogue1, feat: dodge, luck of heroes (skill: put 4 in intimidate)
2. Fighter1, feat: exotic weapon
3. Fighter2, feat: knockdown, mobility
4. Fighter3 (STR23)
5. Fighter4, feat: spring attack
6. Fighter5, feat: expertise
7. Fighter6, feat: whirlwind
8. Fighter7 (STR24)
9. Fighter8, feat: Weapon focus: Choice, power attack
10. Fighter9
11. Fighter10, feat: Improved Knockdown
12. Fighter11 (STR25), feat: Improved Parry ***fighter whetstone***
13. Fighter12, feat: disarm
14. Fighter13
15. Fighter14, feat: Improved critical, cleave
16. Weaponmaster1 (STR26)
17. Weaponmaster2
18. Weaponmaster3, feat: Improved Disarm
19. Weaponmaster4
20. Weaponmaster5 (STR27)

Pre-Epic BAB= 19
Pre-Epic HP= 236
Pre-Epic Save= (fort= 13, reflex= 12, will= 5) -feat/base attributes added in-
Pre-Epic Skill points = 139

EPIC

21. Weaponmaster6, Feat: Great Cleave
22. Weaponmaster7
23. Fighter15
24. Fighter16, feat: Overwhelm. critical, Devistating critical (STR28)
25. Fighter17
26. Fighter18, feat: armorskin
27. Rogue2, feat: Great Str 1 (STR29)
28. Fighter19 (STR30)
29. Fighter20, feat: epic weapon focus
30. Fighter21, feat: Great Str 2 (STR31) ***advanced defense***
31. Fighter22, feat: epic prowess
32. Fighter23 (STR32)
33. Fighter24, feat: blindfighting, Great Str 3 (Str33)
34. Fighter25
35. Fighter26, feat: improved expertise
36. Fighter27, feat: Great Str 4 (Str34,35)
37. Fighter28, feat: EP Swap STR (Str36)
38. Fighter29
39. Rogue3, feat: Great Str 5 (Str37)
40. Fighter30, feat: EP Swap STR ***epic dodge*** (Str38,39)

Epic BAB=29
Epic HP= 468
Epic Save= (fort=23, reflex=22, will=15)
Epic Skill point= 112

LEGENDARY
41. Fighter31 ***whirlwind=adds 10% physical vulnerability for 2 round)***
42. Fighter32, feat: legendary luck (STR40)
43. Fighter33
44. Fighter34 (STR41)
45. Fighter35, feat: Great STR 6 (STR42)
46. Fighter36 (STR43)
47. Fighter37
48. Fighter38, feat: Great Str 7 (STR44,45)
49. Fighter39
50. Fighter40 (STR46)
51. Fighter41, feat: Great Str 8 ***greater disarm/knockdown/parry (STR47)***
52. Fighter42 (STR48)
53. Fighter43
54. Fighter44, feat: Great Str 9 (STR49,50)
55. Fighter45
56. Fighter46 (STR51)
57. Fighter47, feat: Great Str 10 (STR52)
58. Figher48 (STR53)
59. Fighter49
60. Fighter50, feat: Legendary Weapon Focus(STR54)

Leg. BAB = 44
Leg. Base save = fort=31, reflex=30, will=21)
Leg. Base HP = 708
Leg. Skill points= 100



====================================
Skills (total skill pts=351)

Intimidate=4
Discipline=63
Tumble=40
Parry=63
Craft armor=63
Craft Weapon=63
Use Magic device=42

=====================================
Final Strength

66 = 17 (base) + 5 (subby) + 10 (lvlup) + 10 (LL) + 10 (feats) + 2 (EP swap) + 12 (items)


Final Max. AB

98 = 29 (L40) + 15 (LBAB) + 1 (WF) + 2 (EWF) + 1 (EP) + 3 (LWF) + 28 (Str) + 20

(via buffs) (? craft weapon AB stack or toward 20?)


Final Max. Saves (if +12 to attributes, +20 to save throw)

Fort=57 Reflex=56 Will=47

====================================


Critical Hits (keen, imp. crit, wm bonus,dev crit)


WEAPON (Choose 1)

bastard sword

normal HG= 19-20 x3
Keen= 17-20
Imp. crit= 15-20
WM range & multiplier = 13-20 x4
dev critical mulitplier= 13-20 x5

or

Scythe

normal=20 x4
keen=19-20 x4
imp. crit=18-20 x4
WM range & muliplier= 16-20 x5
dev. critical muliplier= 16-20 x6

[darthtorin]

Once I took the same level combination – and was not satisfied. The 7 levels WM are not that great as they look. If you take 7 fighter levels instead and don’t take the feats needed for WM, then you spare a lot of feats. Put them all into strength (prowess and convert to strength). And also: don’t take weapon specializaton and epic weapon specializaton (sounds crazy I know). Physical damage plays a lesser role in the higher levels, AB is more important. Take also strength instead. Then you end up with something like +8 strength. That is AB+4. It is better in my opinion. Why? To hit critical you got to do a successful hit AND a second successful roll.

At level 1 I would not take Dodge – take better an investment feat like Blooded (for LL tumble) or Strong Soul (for LL Hardened Soul). (..Is that possible? )

3 levels of Rogue are great - Evasion, uncanny dodge.
Edit: If you take the first Rogue level in the epic levels the you get AB+1.

Cheers
Darth Torin

[the1kobra]

One big problem. Fighter. CC STR Fighters are terrible. Other than the RDD, which gets it's fair share of benefits, fighters are the only STR tank class that does not get crit immune. As a result, you're going to be turned into paste over and over again with this build. You have no blooded/LSA tumble and you have to use plate(base Dex < 14), meaning your AC is going to be bad, and with plate, tower shield, you can't rely on parry to protect you. Simply put, this character won't be able to cut it.
What you should do, firstly, take blooded first level and LSA tumble at 42nd. This will give you more AC. Also, don't take a rogue level pre epic or it will harm your AB. Secondly, try to fit dex 14 in to start, then you can use medium armor with max AC, and with no crit immune to have, you will NEED it.
Lastly, since CC fighters are just horrible on this server, I would switch around and turn this into a WM. WM gets more AB and crit immune, so a WM is better in just about every way than a fighter. The only way you could ever make a CC fighter work is to use juggernaut, and even then, you're going to be inferior to a juggernaut WM since juggs only get 2% crit/str mod now.
I would also get rid of specialization and epic specialization in favor of more STR, but as this character is now, I can tell you won't be happy with it.

[darthtorin]

...BTW: Now I'm trying a BANEKNIGHT. Needs strength and Charisma. Baseborn Tiatan seems the best class for it

[louisvilleslugger]

EDIT:
I liked the idea to swap out WS/EWS for x2 STR increases, so changed above.

Still want to give a fighter a chance, even though it's the weakest melee class due to lack of crit immunity.

His AC benefit from tumble is 8 dodge AC. With most boots adding 10 or so, the 20 cap isn't hard to reach.

The blooded/LSA route would be a good deal if I none of the classes i took had tumble.

[louisvilleslugger]

What do you guys think about:
Swapping @ level 35:

Improved Expertise (+10AC/-10AB)

for

Epic Prowess Swap for DEX (14) --> 1 higher AC in heavy armor, +1 reflex save (still have regular expertise 5/-5)

Good idea? Bad idea?

[starlandra]

coreyb said:

EDIT:
I liked the idea to swap out WS/EWS for x2 STR increases, so changed above.

Still want to give a fighter a chance, even though it's the weakest melee class due to lack of crit immunity.

His AC benefit from tumble is 8 dodge AC. With most boots adding 10 or so, the 20 cap isn't hard to reach.

The blooded/LSA route would be a good deal if I none of the classes i took had tumble.

tumble does not count towards dodge ac. you stll want blooded LSA for the +4 more tumble ac you will get in LL's. I would recommend going pure (50) wm instead... you can get crit immune, and you ab will be +10 higher.

[louisvilleslugger]

is fighter really that terrible?
egads...

any hope for fighter improvement in the future?

That is good news about tumble. What type of AC is tumble? Un-defined?

[the1kobra]

coreyb said:

is fighter really that terrible?
egads...

CC fighters, yes. Fighter is basically used as a splash class for extra feats and I don't believe that it is improving any time soon. But there is really no reason to take more than 10 FIghter levels on most builds.

coreyb said:

any hope for fighter improvement in the future?

No.

coreyb said:

That is good news about tumble. What type of AC is tumble? Un-defined?

Tumble AC functions like dodge AC I believe, but functions outside of the +20 cap, meaning that LSA tumble would give you 4 more AC than a 40th level dump.
Oh, and be sure to take the rogue level out of the pre epic levels or it will harm your AB.

[simpetar]

I know a little about cc fighters, but one thing that scares me are the saves. As far as I know, people usually aim at 60s or even 65s when entering hells. Yours seem to me insufficient and are going to kill you IMHO. Any chance you could give up some combat feats and replace them with save feats?

[shaengarne]

But what about the parry conceal and epic dodge a cc fighter gets? If you get the right gear, bardsong, esf and lsf:parry get the parry conceal up to about 30% concealment which actually stacks with whatever you get from a mage. So you might get 50% conceal from discplacement (is affected by blindfight) and 30% conceal from your parry score. And while it's hard to get parry up to 120, it can be done using medium armor and probably a large instead of a tower shield.

I sketched out a cc fighter build as well, no wm but monk pre-epic (for saves and evasion and rogue to max umd at 40. You'll get more than enough feats to get all "legendary fighter feats" (imp parry, imp disarm, imp knockdown), saves around 64 and still don't fall short on ab (about 96). And with 58 fighter levels your greater kd/disarm abilities might have a dc high enough to be useful. Parry is 63(base) +8(dex bonus) +10(esf) -15(towershield, medium armor) + 20(lsf) + 30(items/bardsong) = 116. With a large shield more than 120.

shaengarne