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Post by bort on Mar 25, 2008 12:25:52 GMT
For sure, I was just curious what the theoretical maximum would be (didn't include the possible +3 from Asmo deflection arti) and figured I should share it..
All those different ways of boosting AC a tiny bit become even more unnecessary if you can raise Dex enough to make Robes more worthwhile than Light Armor (like if you reincarnate with a better subrace for example).
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Post by simpetar on Mar 25, 2008 12:31:23 GMT
+17 natural AC (Barkskin) Is that so? I am afraid Barkskin is not considered Slinger class spell even if it is a domain spell, so you will not have enough caster levels to get full +17. Can someone clarify that? Nonetheless, as Rajah pointed out, AC in 140´s is sufficient for anything and amulets with +16 on them are not that hard to get.
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Post by the1kobra on Mar 25, 2008 14:31:01 GMT
You'd lose medium stature (no tower shields) and still don't get the +1 ab/ac as you don't get the small stature feat. Yes, you do lose tower shields, but you DO get the +1 ab/ac for being small, and I have tested this numerous times. It's the actual SIZE and not the feat that counts, it's the same engine mechanics as to why barbarians lose AC and AB when in shapestrong, so, you WILL get more AC/AB for being small. As for tower shields, there are good large shield and small shield options. You don't lose pentavite either, considering that it's dexterity restricted and you couldn't use it anyways. Mine uses the ever watchful eye, and I don't think I would replace it with a tower shield even if I could. And you'd lose SF: Enchant; so that's either -60 HP from toughness or -1 attack from rapid shot as I'd like to keep both epics...Sure, you'd get better starting stats and about 2 or 3 ab, but I think the ability to wear tower shields alone is better than 2 ab. So? Lose a feat and gain 2 stats, so essentially it's like gaining a feat overall since you can get away with shelling out a great stat. Mine only took 3 Great wisdoms, and yours took 4, end result is a 1 higher Dex. and kobolds sux. goblins pwn them every day and have better stats, but losing medium size is a pity. WHAT? LIES! Filthy lies! Anyways, my build comes out to top with 137 AC(In light armor, crafting not included), no BURs in the equipment setup.
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Post by shaengarne on Mar 25, 2008 15:40:39 GMT
Now I get your point. The thought that I could change the feat progression didn't even cross my mind, sorry. But starting with 16+2 dex and 15 wis would indeed net you a dex two points higher, but no SF: Enchant. So you could swap one great dex feats for the spell focus and the other one for anything else (like imp. crit. or esf: disc or parry). Now it comes down to one free feat and +1ab/ac from small stature (didn't know that you don't need the feat; but it seems logical, as I've yet to see a large stature feat) vs the ability to equip tower shields. I knew about pentavite but I thought three categories of shields to chose from is better than two when it comes to gear selection (same as when building a shifter). I'll have a look into the exact feat progression and update the first post accordingly...my apologies to those who are afraid of the kobold/tinker gnome domination of these forums. shaengarne
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Post by geth999 on Mar 25, 2008 16:51:07 GMT
So.... why is everyone saying that a Wis based slinger would be a bad idea? Firstly, lets consider the AC. This is easily fixed in your loss of Dex ac by simply putting 1 monk lvl allowing for Wis bonus added to AC in which could probably net you an even higher AC. Another thing is that AC really shouldn't matter, as this is a support based character, and shouldn't be in the fray at all. It should be standing back, KDing and helping allies. A Wis based Slinger also allows you to tap into a Clerics ability to cast spells, and no one has ever heard of someone complaining about a Cleric spamming healing circles or mass heals. Just my 2 cents....
Geth
[edit] fixed spelling
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Post by shaengarne on Mar 25, 2008 19:48:24 GMT
I don't think a wis based slinger is a bad idea...why else would you have to take zen archery to access the quasi? But it is limited in some ways, as even with monk you'd hardly reach the same ac as a dex based slinger, as you can't wear armor and shield to get the wis bonus to ac. That means if your wis bonus is about the same (or a bit higher) as the dex bonus of a dex based char, you'd have to compensate the whole shield ac (20 in this build) with either dex or more wis (unless you're a ranger or dwarven defender, but that's another topic). So even if you get 30 dex and 60 wis (this build gets 31 wis and 52 dex, but going wis would net you some more great wis feats), your ac is still at least 10 points down from the one a dex based slinger could achieve.
Sure, a support char doesn't need 138+ ac, but why should you limit your possibilities when teamed up in a party? A dex based slinger can hand out GMWs, healing circles and mass heals just as well as a wis based slinger (maybe not as many or only with certain gear), he can breach or kd foes with the respective bullets just as well (although at a lower ab). But a dex based slinger can mimic a dex tank for some time as well...the wis slinger can't even if he got the same ac as the dex variant because of dex checks. Example: You get in a party with no dex based chars beside a rogue or assassine...now you can imagine how happy the rogue will be if you can tank some mobs while he's getting the flank position and is landing sneak attacks all over.
This is just my point of view, but I think a char that gets as many possibilities to help your party as the divine slinger gets, shouldn't limit himself to do those things just slightly better, as you won't reach a caster cleric's healing circles or a mages bigbies or an arcane archers damage output or the "tanking ability" of a rogue with 70% conceal and epic dodge anyways. But have you ever heard of an archer or rogue doing more than two points of the above? A mage or a cleric is even more limited...but the slinger isn't...you can do everything of the above to a certain extent.
shaengarne
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Post by crimsonbinome22 on Mar 25, 2008 22:52:33 GMT
So.... why is everyone saying that a Wis based slinger would be a bad idea? Firstly, lets consider the AC. This is easily fixed in your loss of Dex ac by simply putting 1 monk lvl allowing for Wis bonus added to AC in which could probably net you an even higher AC. Another thing is that AC really shouldn't matter, as this is a support based character, and shouldn't be in the fray at all. It should be standing back, KDing and helping allies. A Wis based Slinger also allows you to tap into a Clerics ability to cast spells, and no one has ever heard of someone complaining about a Cleric spamming healing circles or mass heals. Just my 2 cents.... Geth [edit] fixed spelling In order to get that Wisdom AC though you need to lose the shield and armour completely, meaning you lose about +18 from a girding'd shield. AC might not be everything, but it's certainly nice to be able to hold your own when a nasty random lands on top of you, especially if you take miracle (not a whole lot of use if your always the first one dead). Also you don't need wisdom to use healing circles (might boost heal skill a little bit perhaps) and mass heals, unless allies are having to make saving throws these days.
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