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Post by Abadname on Oct 16, 2006 11:05:46 GMT
I was weighing up some decisions on my builds the other day, when I remembered these old tables I had that showed average hits/round for specific situations. I looked over them, and found them useful, and I thought other people might find them handy as well. So I made a basic website with my free webspace that comes with my email account (also free ) with the tables in it. Its fairly basic ATM, and the docs that are there for printing are a tad messy, but its still usable. I went through and checked for errors too, but there is bound to be one or two. Please let me know if you find them. Here is the homepage: true.dweeb.googlepages.com/index.htmHope it helps with some of those tough build decisions. I find it most useful for assigning an actuall AB value to blind fight and extra attacks/round. It also puts monk attacks and dual wielding into perspective. WARNING: Dapperdave has pointed out a major error in the epic dodge calculations. Shame on me for not checking the Wiki on epic dodge! It doesnt just evade the first attack, it evades the first successful attack. That makes the current epic dodge figures incorrect, especially at a high AC. This will take a while for me to fix up, since it will be alot more complicated to calculate.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Oct 16, 2006 17:36:55 GMT
Moved and Stickied. Funky
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Post by bhao on Oct 16, 2006 23:58:15 GMT
hi
i was always under the impression that blind fight only helps when the enemy had concealment due to actual invisibility (and i dont mean the extra stuff imp invis grants) or the attacker being blind. as far as i understand it, blind fight does not help with concealment caused by self-conceal feats, spells like displacement or other powers like empty body. which somewhat lessens the usefulness of blind fight imho. is that wrong?
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Post by Abadname on Oct 17, 2006 1:26:53 GMT
Moved and Stickied. Funky -> -> -> ;D As far as blind fight goes, I was always under the impression that it helped with all concealment, since creatures can not (to my knowledge) have the "invisible" property at the same time as fighting. I know when my characters cast II and then attacked, invis dissapears from my properties, and only concealment is left. So yeah, thats my reasoning. I'll add a note to the website about it. I would appreciate info from ppl who've done tests on this though. It also occurred to me that the tables would be useful when creating new monsters. If you know what ABs are average for characters, you can set the monster's AC so that there will be a certain average number of hits/round. This can also help you set the HP to a good level. Certainly handy for a n00b toolsetter like me! No doubt the devs here already know that sort of stuff.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Oct 17, 2006 1:48:54 GMT
It also occurred to me that the tables would be useful when creating new monsters. If you know what ABs are average for characters, you can set the monster's AC so that there will be a certain average number of hits/round. This can also help you set the HP to a good level. Certainly handy for a n00b toolsetter like me! No doubt the devs here already know that sort of stuff. We created target abs, acs, and saves looooong ago. Otherwise the mod would be waaaaaaaaaay off balance. We already know the stats of the final boss. Funky
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Post by Abadname on Oct 17, 2006 1:56:43 GMT
As I said I thought you'd already have that sorta stuff The balance of this mod really does amaze me. After doing some fiddling with the toolset a couple of weeks ago, I discovered how complicated and time consuming it is just to make a SINGLE monster, let alone a server full. Anyway, back on-topic, I'm adding in my comments and conclusions in a couple of hours, so ppl can have some of my opinions to quash, disagree with, and be annoyed with
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Post by Abadname on Oct 17, 2006 4:50:09 GMT
Added a summary page. This is probably the most valuable page since it tells you at a glance the value of blind fight, dual wielding, flurry of blows etc etc. I've put it in here for ease of access.
Also fixed a bad error in basic dual wielding page.
Here's the summary:
This is a general Summary of what I found from studying these tables. This is probably what most people will want to read, since it states most of what there is to learn from the tables in a much easier-to-use fashion.
The format for this page is: Summary: (a facts only summary) Opinion: (my opinion, for what its worth)
All the stated numbers are obtained from the figures when AB is less than or equal to AC. This, I think, is when the figures will be most useful.
Contents: Blind Fight Monk Attacks Flurry of Blows 2 Extra Attacks Dual Wielding Concealment Epic Dodge
Blind Fight Summary: When fighting 50% concealed creatures, it is worth 2-3 AB. However, when the AB of the attacker is greater than or equal to the AC of the defender, it is worth much more. (up to 8 AB) Opinion: Definitely a must-have feat for non-casters, considering it also helps you keep AC vs concealed creatures.
Monk Attacks Summary: Using unarmed or kamas as a monk is worth 1-5 AB compared to a normal character. However, when the AB of the attacker is greater than or equal to the AC of the defender, its value increases hugely. Opinion. Monks can't winge about low AB anymore! Or at least not as much.
Flurry of Blows Summary: Worth 2-5 AB. However, when the AB of the attacker is greater than or equal to the AC of the defender, its value skyrockets! Opinion: Monks should use this ALL the time! You are almost never at any disadvantage.
Two Extra Attacks Summary: Just a tad better than Dual Wielding, as expected. See Below. Opinion: Good to have!
Dual Wielding Summary: Worth 2-5 AB. However, when the AB of the attacker is greater than or equal to the AC of the defender, its value increases greatly. Opinion: The AB increase cancels the penalty for dual wielding, but is it worth three feats and the loss of a shield? Only when the character's AB is about the same or greater than the defenders AC. For kama monks though, a must-have if you can fit in the feats!
Concealment Summary: 50% concealment is worth 1-5 AC. However, when the AB of the attacker is greater than or equal to the AC of the defender, its value increases dramatically. Opinion: Concealment rocks! Blind fight does reduce its effectiveness a tad, but how many monsters have this feat? Its up to the players to guess. Get it if you can.
Epic Dodge Summary: Worth 2-5 AC. However, when the AB of the attacker is greater than or equal to the AC of the defender, its value is MUCH higher. Opinion: Ironically, this feat would be much more valuable for low AC STR based characters than the high AC DEX based characters than can take it. Definitely worth getting if you can.
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Post by chainlink on Oct 18, 2006 14:36:46 GMT
I'm sure I've come across invisible stalkers before which are permanently invisible although I'm not sure how the NWN engine tackles this?
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Post by bhao on Oct 22, 2006 23:35:07 GMT
did some testing today with someone who had the blind fight feat. i used ethereal visage on myself - meaning actual invisibility was not involved - and the log said, he kept missing me because of the concealment.
this makes blind fight a bit useless imho, since it almost never helps. if the attacker also has true seeing, then the only reason to have it at all, would be to fight more effectively while blinded or inside a darkness spell.
that's not really worth a feat.
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Post by Abadname on Oct 23, 2006 4:29:04 GMT
The messages in the logs saying that you've missed due to concealment still appear when you're fighting invisible creatures, so that's why I've had trouble testing it myself. Unless I'm wrong about it, which I often am... I'm recovering from a flu so my brain is a bit slow ATM.
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Post by fusa on Oct 23, 2006 4:43:10 GMT
the way I tested it, I used a character that had blind fight, used leto and removed blind fight and saved it to a different file. Then fought both against each other. The one without blind fight died every time, usually with the one with blind fight at close to full health. Only once did the one with blind fight get close to 50% health. The concealment that they had was self conceal 5, nothing else was used.
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Post by Abadname on Oct 31, 2006 6:31:19 GMT
Thanks for posting the results of that test Fusa, its pretty conclusive! I've made an Excell workbook that allows people to specify exactly what they want the chart to display. It also can display up to three different tables at once, so you can easilly compare results. Its alot more fun than trawling through charts till you find what you want Here's the link: true.dweeb.googlepages.com/calculator.htmEnjoy!
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Post by Abadname on Nov 1, 2006 6:58:06 GMT
There is now a spreadsheet available for monks. Tomorrow I'll make one for comparing monk to non-monk.
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Post by dapperdave on Nov 1, 2006 10:07:56 GMT
Hi Abadname, thanks for sharing this, you've obviously put a lot of work into it. However I think your numbers for epic dodge may be off - ie in "basic + haste" with defender's ac 20 more than attacker's ab you have 0.25 hits per round (which is correct), but then 0.20 if the defender has epic dodge, which i assume means you have just ignored 1 attack/round (ie 0.20 is 0.05 *4) I worked out individually the chances of hitting 5,4,3 and 2 times in a round and then multiplied these by 4,3,2 and 1 respectively (which removes the first attack per round which hits) and i came up with 0.00453 !!
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Post by Abadname on Nov 1, 2006 23:08:40 GMT
I always thought epic dodge just removes the first attack irrespective of whether it hits or not, but you are indeed correct. So yeah I'll look into that and see if I can fix it. It will make figuring epic dodge statistics alot more complicated...
In the meantime the website will feature a big warning telling people not to take notice of the epic dodge figures. Thanks for pointing this out.
EDIT: Maybe its not so complicated after all, but I can't seem to think today. Dapperdave, if you have a straight formula I could insert into the spreadsheet I would greatly appreciate it.
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