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Post by angmar1111 on Oct 30, 2006 0:32:44 GMT
Hi all,
As I mentioned in the other build thread I'd like to build a HG version of the 'combat medic' concept. Basically this would be a character who buffs you before a fight, hangs out in the back line lobbing a few offensive spells, tanks in emergencies and can survive the front lines well enough to get in and heal or rez you. Don't rely on them to damage the enemy as much a wiz or fighter, or to be thief-y at all.
So before I spend more time on the concept, my question is this: would you welcome such a character in your party or would you resent them as a leech? Do you have to kill the enemy to be useful?
Thanks!
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Post by reelroleplayer on Oct 30, 2006 18:32:54 GMT
I've thought long on this subject as well, and am still somewhat torn about it. Ignoring effectiveness for a moment, conceptually I think it's a great idea. Iconic priest builds in general fill a vital role in a group in just about any setting.
I've often wondered how much difference it would make if I memorized only buffs and heals, and built my character to function primarily as a buffer, getting the GMW/Magic Vestment boosters, along with Miracle, Girding, and Instruments.
In terms of party play, I think it would make a difference if my main job were spamming mass heal, letting everyone else continue to deal damage and not have to pause frequently to heal themselves.
That being said, while the build you choose does have a strong influence on your effectiveness, HG is still very gear dependent. You can build a caster cleric just about any way you want, but without some very good resist gear, even the low-mid LL areas will have you scrambling just to keep yourself alive, let alone your group. I suppose you could make the argument that you go into every map with GS active, and simply wait for someone to get hurt or die. I think it would require a consciousness shift in your group and an overabundance of trust, since many melee's would continue to use their trusty heal potions even if you are spamming mass heals.
I often play the GS/rezz role with my caster cleric on desert runs, since he's level 43 and his offensive spells aren't that effective against many of the enemies there (his spell that does work against everything there breaks loot, which I've stopped using since it's such a large area of effect). Being dedicating to rezzing does make a pretty big difference. However, I think others might disagree, since many players on HG have the mindset that the best offense is a good defense.
Also, consider a bard. They can grow to be quite powerful on HG, and if you asked me which I'd prefer in my group, I'd usually say bard over a dedicated caster-cleric-buff machine. Bards definitely help a group's combat effectiveness with their bard song, but their biggest asset is their curse song, since it makes both melees and casters more effective by lowering AC and saves.
I'd be interested to hear how well this works out--let me know if you decide to give it a shot.
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Post by angmar1111 on Oct 30, 2006 20:42:58 GMT
That being said, while the build you choose does have a strong influence on your effectiveness, HG is still very gear dependent. You can build a caster cleric just about any way you want, but without some very good resist gear, even the low-mid LL areas will have you scrambling just to keep yourself alive, let alone your group. I suppose you could make the argument that you go into every map with GS active, and simply wait for someone to get hurt or die. I think it would require a consciousness shift in your group and an overabundance of trust, since many melee's would continue to use their trusty heal potions even if you are spamming mass heals. True... of course, as someone pointed out to me, if people do come to rely upon you for heals, you could be in for a lot of criticism if you miss a few! Also, apparently GS only works if you cast it after the monsters have spawned, which is a problem that I really hope gets fixed in NWN2! Even so, it's not enough to dissuade me from this path. Thanks for your thoughts!
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Post by whodat1 on Oct 30, 2006 21:13:00 GMT
For caster cleric, up until LLs theres no reason to be in a support role, You have ac very similar to the fighters, your spells are landing, and for many places your the strongest offensive class by a good margin. The only reason a cleric is not burning through raz is because your build is wacky or u need more practice. Low lls is different. As reel mentions, your lacking the immunities, gear, and dc for good offensive play. Combat medic works great at this point, you sit gs, and mass heal the offensive dps, and when your done with that you throw out some eqs, wofs, destructions, etc until you garner attention and take a dirt nap. Your team will be happy you are there.
But if your 50ish, say 52+, you should start changing your role to offensive. Theres no reason to stay combat medic, because you can fill that role as well as an offensive role.
If you have properly built caster cleric, its not a matter of following a path, its a choice to play well. If you can reduce a deveral or ssith to 1d4 hitpoints with harm, you do it, you don't sit back and let your team beat on the thing for 5 minutes because you have labeled yourself a medic. At high lls a combat medic is a euphemism for a poorly built or played caster cleric.
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Post by Dannecrot on Oct 30, 2006 22:42:30 GMT
Also, apparently GS only works if you cast it after the monsters have spawned... That would be TS - creatures spawned after TS is cast will not be affected. GS works fine.
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Post by azrael on Oct 30, 2006 23:01:40 GMT
I think a cleric can do both very effectively. I wouldn't recommend focusing on healing due to the economy and availablility of heal pots. I think almost any group appreciates quick rezzers, but once again, with scrolls any good defensive build can do that. Your main decisions will be what epic spells to take. I decided on a party friendly cleric epic wise (evo,enchant, divination, abjuration), but my implode will only be only 1 shy of the maximum possible anyway, so its not much of a sacrifice (the main thing sacrificed was necro focuses). I'll have +13 gmw, with the epic granting +4 to ac for whole party. I will also have miracle and aegis for party use. Bless, prayer, and battletide should get ab pretty close to max, while lowering enemy ab. Really the only sacrifice you have to make is using most of your lvl 3,4, and 5 slots on buffs, which are not your big offensive spell slots anyway.
It comes down to how you play, which as Whodat mentioned is dependant on your level and toughness relative to what you're fighting. Why bother casting battletide, if you can implode everything faster than the tanks can kill them.
Bottom line is a cleric can be a very nice support caster for party buffing, but don't shoot yourself in the foot by not maxing (or close to it) wis or not taking any offensive spell focuses.
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Post by angmar1111 on Oct 31, 2006 0:36:46 GMT
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Post by angmar1111 on Oct 31, 2006 0:39:19 GMT
The only reason a cleric is not burning through raz is because your build is wacky or u need more practice. Probably both. Thanks for the info, people!
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Post by bort on Oct 31, 2006 1:06:05 GMT
I found desert runs around 40 were ok - I waited til I'd checked for loot carefully (using the TAB key to highlight) BEFORE spamming Earthquake and found that this worked pretty well. I didn't run in, spawn em all and unleash fury with scant regard for my wellbeing like a 50+ cleric can, but I did my share of killing and kissed the sand a little, but not too much. Not massing the place helps too Some creatures could be harmed easily at that level, though not all. Another thought: I did have some pretty useful equipment to equip my cleric with when he hit level 40, more with the immortal tag, and more with the Dachy tag, so someone new to the server (which I got the impression you are, if I didn't read it) would have a much different experience until they built up a collection of good equipment (High AC, % damage immune, Con/Wis boost and Resist items being the most helpful off the top of my head). Re. GS - maybe it's just me Dannecrot, guess I'm cursed. Back on the heal/res - As mentioned above, the HG custom epic spells will do wonders for your party - if you don't know which you're gonna pick for your cleric; read up now!![/b] highergroundpoa.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=info&action=display&n=1&thread=1139034754You'll need to include the right epic spell focuses in your build, and you won't want to miss out on some of these, especially if you're going down the 'help the party' route.
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Post by jillybean on Oct 31, 2006 3:02:30 GMT
AFAIK drow is the only place that GS doesn't work as it should - and even there, its pretty darn reliable
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Post by MilesAtma on Oct 31, 2006 3:42:20 GMT
i have made several defensive oriented charaters for the purpose of keeping a party alive and I think its a great idea. Any methods you can dream up to keep me from fuging works for me. If you find yourself in a difficult area, you can really make a difference on those chars not optimally equipped. I find the availability of buffer type chars to be lacking at times and I would welcome you in any of my parties. Also, I would guess that having a very good defensive build with mass heal for example and other types of buffs will work nicely in the hells. I imagine that it will take a group of well-equipped, specialized and well-coordinated individuals to effectively manage that group of areas. Just a guess though.
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