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Post by ekstroem on Oct 3, 2006 10:03:07 GMT
The Tin Can: 22 DD/8 BRD/10 RDDI've been toying around with the idea behind this build for some time and am currently in the process of leveling a toon based on the following build. The main idea was to have a strength tank that could take awful amount of hits and have good elemental immunities. Base race dwarf, subrace arctic dwarf. Starting abilities:Ability | Points | Race | Subrace | Starting value | Str | 16 | | +2 | 18 | Dex | 13 | | -2 | 11 | Con | 15 | +2 | +1 | 18 | Int | 10 | | | 10 | Wis | 8 | | | 8 | Cha | 13 | -2 | -2 | 9 |
Level Progression: 5 Bard/4 RDD/1 Bard/10 DD/6 RDD/1 Bard/10 DD/1 Bard/2 DD You need to change alignment a few times when going back and forth between bard and DD All stat increases into str. Pre-epic feats: Toughness (should be taken before level 10) Dodge (should be taken as starting feat) Weapon Focus Improved critical Blind fight Lightning reflexes Iron Will Epic feats (* should be taken as DD epic feats): * Armor Skin * Epic Weapon Focus * Epic Prowess Great Strength 1-5 Great Constitution 1-2 Legendary Feats: (7 of the following) Great Strength 6-10 Epic Will Epic Fort [possibly leave this one out] Epic Reflexes Skill points: Get 8 lore by level 5. Max tumble on bard levels (for a total of 40 points at level 37) and put 32 point into UMD at level 37 to be able to use all scrolls. Discipline should be maxed on DD levels after 38 but you will lack skill points to get it maxed until somewhere in LLs. If you fancy dwarven drinking songs then put 12 points into perform - that will net you +1 to all saves and +1 attack. Pros: - High physical immunity+resist (should be able to reach 80% physical immunity + 15/ physical resist)
- Fire immunity
- 25% cold immunity
- High AC (for a str build ~ around 120+)
- Can use scrolls
- With the right equipment this toon can have 80% physical, fire immunity, 100% elec, 100% cold, 100% acid and 75% sonic immunity (or variations hereof - possibly include 25% magical with the right UR rings)
- Decent fort and will saves
Cons:- Low number of skill points
- Not fantastic damage output
- Reflex saves (but hey - it's a tin can)
Ability increases and feats will give you +38 strength, +4 constitution, +2 int, +2 cha and +6 AC (draconic armor and armor skin) I decided to go with battleaxe for this build as dwarven battleaxe would require an extra feat (exotic weapons). I'm not sure if battleaxe is the best pick as I can't remember the stats on the Dusty battleaxe but at least I stick with the classical dwarven image. Alternative build idea:Use Battlerager: +4 str, +3 con, -2 int, -3 cha, feats: dodge, toughness. You will loose the cold immunity but will free up two feats and not need to start putting points into dex to get dodge at level 1. With the build below you will only need great strength 1-9 (freeing up an extra feats). The 3 additional feats (2 pre-epic) could be used for exotic weapon feat, luck-of-heroes, and either epic damage reduction I or epic fort. Ability | Points | Race | Subrace | Starting value | Str | 17 | | +4 | 21 | Dex | 8 | | | 8 | Con | 15 | +2 | +3 | 20 | Int | 12 | | -2 | 10 | Wis | 8 | | | 8 | Cha | 13 | -2 | -3 | 8 |
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Post by phalthallus on Oct 8, 2006 12:35:13 GMT
Just wondering if you've done this in the test area, and if you could provide naked stats @ 40. If not, I could possibly run it through to see myself. I'm just considering a somewhat similar concept, but going at it a different way (dex-based, and taking epic dodge, improved evasion, and self conceal feats). I'd just like to compare the numbers on these two builds before I start either one. So like I said, if you can't/haven't run it thru the tester, I will, and I'll post the stats (if that's ok with you).
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Post by ekstroem on Oct 8, 2006 14:45:06 GMT
Just wondering if you've done this in the test area, and if you could provide naked stats @ 40. Here goes:
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Post by phalthallus on Oct 8, 2006 14:52:38 GMT
Any thought to taking the three Epic Damage Reduction feats? I see you have the 22 con, so just curious if you had considered that and left it out for a reason. Didn't think it was worth 3 feats? Overall I think it's a really nice tank.
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Post by ekstroem on Oct 8, 2006 15:00:57 GMT
I really would have liked to have epic damage reduction in there. However with the added immunity from LLs and some nice resist items in the game I feel that once you are dealt damage it is from blows doing massive damage (crits etc). In those situations the extra 9 point reduction may not count too much.
The build will end up having str 56(=+12=68) at 60 and I don't think you'd loose a lot by only taking great strength 1-8 and then maybe use 2 legendary feats for epic damage reduction 1-2. Might be worth considering.
Cheers,
Claus
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Post by phalthallus on Oct 8, 2006 15:37:14 GMT
Thanks for the info Claus. I'll definintely take it into consideration when working on my build. I want to see how mine ends up compared to Halfling Death, yours, and some other builds.
Thanks again!
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Post by ekstroem on Oct 19, 2006 14:50:19 GMT
Status at level 51:
Build tweak: While I was building the toon I realized that the bard level taken at level 27 gives nothing to the toon at all. Instead I took another DD level simply because that increased the dwarven defender shield damage by 1 point. This is really a microscopic change in the build but 1 point more damage is 1 point more damage - no reason not to get it. Thus my actual build is 23 DD / 10 RDD / 7 Bard.
Desert: He had a hard time with sanders in the first few legendary levels but after epic reflexes and the natural increase in saves from legendary levels he is hardly ever drowned by sand. Implosions still get him occasionally (but this is a general multiple testing problem since his fortitude is already in the mid-50's). Not often enough for me to transfer the odd immunity shield from another toon and not a problem after he was illithid tagged. He can take an insane amount of hits - and he even managed to kill one of the hulking sanders with his damage shield after being petrified. It took quite a long time but he wasn't hurt at all by the punches from the sander. Sand is also a problem to hurt since both the rare and dusty battle axes does not right damage type.
Ssithrak: Doing well. can easily have both full cold and elec immunity at all times.
Dustbone: This run is a piece of cake. Can have full fire and cold immunity, high acid, and 25% magic immunity. Takes no kickback damage from barbed devils. Only real problem is the breath from Dustbone himself, and in most cases that isn't even automatic death.
Illithid: Still lacking a bit in equipment that increases discipline so had to do a bit of ring swapping to handle the gravitars special attack. Rest of run was more or less standard. Being able to use scrolls is a clear plus.
Beholder area: With all the possible immunites on this toon the only real hazzle there is the grubs that take a long time to kill. Even Bob has difficulty dealing damage.
Pyramids: The toon is doing very well in pyramids and has no need of shunts at all. A bit of ring swapping can done to reduce the non-elemental damage here but it is not necessary at all. The UMD skill comes in quite handy to clear the black stuff left by the souls and greater sanctuary is always useful.
All in all: quite happy with the build. He's not the fastest killing machine out there (far from it) but he sure is a rock that can take a beating while other party members apply their firepower. With the elemental and physical immunities and AC 126 he's doing okay.
Claus
Edit: Added information about the beholder/pyramid area. Added alternative build idea.
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Post by ekstroem on Nov 11, 2006 1:49:11 GMT
Here's the end result (after GMW +14 and cleric +4 AC buff). Decided to do a few tweaks with the feat selection at level 57 and 60. Instead of taking great strength 9 and 10 I picked great dexterity 1 and epic damage reduction. These changes will cost me 1 ab and +1% physical immunity but will increase my reflex save by 1. Have taken the build everywhere on the server and it feels quite solid. Cheers, Claus
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Post by stonewarrior on Feb 5, 2007 19:15:36 GMT
I am working on a variation of this build with a Battlerager and wondered if I would have to start my Charisma at 16 (to get to 11) or if the character creation only factors the -2 charisma penalty a "vanilla" dwarf receives. I am using the CBC wizard (fun things to do while at work) and I can only take bard if I start at 16. Thanks!
Peace, John.
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Post by ekstroem on Feb 6, 2007 0:56:42 GMT
I am working on a variation of this build with a Battlerager and wondered if I would have to start my Charisma at 16 (to get to 11) or if the character creation only factors the -2 charisma penalty a "vanilla" dwarf receives. I am using the CBC wizard (fun things to do while at work) and I can only take bard if I start at 16. Thanks! The extra loss to CHA from battlerager is applied after creation the first time you log into docks. Hence, during character creation you should just aim for 11 CHA, but that is actually the minimum because you start as bard so the program makes sure you start with 11 in CHA. I've recently started rebuilding the Tin Can with battlerager myself and have decided to go 7 Bard, 18 DD, 15 RDD. This will net you +1 str and +1 ac at the cost of lower damage from defensive weave. I can mail you the details if you are interested. The resulting build should have better saves and more feat flexibility than the build shown above. Cheers, Claus
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Post by zerragon on Feb 6, 2007 7:29:36 GMT
I have to give credit to Claus for this most excellent build ! I made a Battlerager version with slight differences, and its doing great in the hardest parts of the world. At lvl 48, I took him to Pyramid runs, and hes a blast to play there. Beeing almost totally immune to physical, and easily covering all 5 elements, his only real threat there are heartseekers and lag. I recently got him to 55, and brought him to Hells, and he performed very well. Until the boss battle, did not use a single healing potion. Only treat was Tiamat herslef. He also did well at Dis. Looking forward to getting him to 60, and to bring him further into Hells. His only lowside are reflex saves. Reflex is only 55 now, even with lightning reflexes and epic reflexes (wil l be 56 at 60). I think I will take epic fort and will for my last two saves, so that even with -saves from deeper layer of hells, he can make the dc 60 saving throws. Will provide a screenshot and document my changes from Claus' build at lvl 60. His end strength and con will be 68/38.
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Post by ekstroem on Feb 21, 2007 12:29:53 GMT
I've received a number of requests to list gear setup for the Tin Can. Currently my toon uses:
Martin's Mauler (Dusty battleaxe - don't have the Dispater battleaxe yet) Vandalar's Plate (not that critical - any of the Beholder armours would work great. Afair there is one with implosion immunity that might be better although I don't remember the elemental immunity it provides. If you don't have beholder plates then immortal or penumbrium plate work fine). Pentavite Shield Belt of Bestial Resilience (for CON and STR, physical resist and divine resist) Ectoplasmic Weave Boots of the Bastion (elemental resists) Claps of the forewarned (physical and KD immunity) Unitary Focus (to boost DEX and WIS for reflex and will saves. The rare helmet would also work) Chain of Jaelynix (for MS immunity) Standard rings are Chillfang's Binder and Signet of Yavi. This setup will give 100% immunity to sonic, fire, cold and elec and 75% immunity to acid as well as 25% magical.
Rings and ammy are changing depending on the run but the above is my basic setup that I use for hells, pyramid, beholder, etc. For the last 2 plateau maps I use Penumbrium Plate to get implosion immunity.
Will update the build with legendary saves as soon as I get working on my rebuild.
Cheers,
Claus
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Post by Yomi on Feb 21, 2007 13:50:27 GMT
I have a few differences in my equipment, some since I don't have some of those items. Similar items are the DB Battleaxe, Pentavite Shield, Belt of Bestial Resistance, and Ecto Weave cloak.
I typically use the Plate of Thokul Zanben, though Vandalar would likely be preferred due to the extra sonic immunity. Thokul has thunderclap immunity, raises piercing to 15/-, and gives +8 to dex to raise reflex saves. Penumbrium plate replaces this whenever implosion immunity is needed.
I've decided I like the Elemental amulet on him, though Lich King would be great to handle all immunities including fear, though I don't have spares. I didn't encounter many issues with meteor swarms unlike some characters -- sure I take some damage but it's surprisingly little -- just heal every 5-10 rounds. Nothing like on my wizard where it kills him nearly instantly. The Pyramid amulet iis nice but doesn't add anything other than MS immunity which happens in what, 1 house of 1 run? Elemental gives me an extra 5% to all elements. For portions of Dis I've taken to putting a Mind Ward +10 amulet on to give Fear immunity. This is nonoptimal but solves the problem.
For bracers I do either Brazen Defiance (10% immunity and some regen and discipline), or Legendary Bracers of Resilience. The latter if I'm switching out Elemental amulet or if I'm somewhere like the Hells where you find yourself needing more than 100% immunity. Wearing both elemental items gives me an extra 20% to all elements.
Boots I swap between Searing Tongue and Cold Feet depending on which DR 50/- I may want. Cold Feet has the advantage of maxing wisdom to get will saves up since I'm not using Unitary Focus.
For helm I've been wearing Helm of the Heralds to complete my immunities. Using clasps of forewarned or a Lich King amulet would negate the need for this, and then Unitary Focus would be a great choice.
Rings vary. For pyramid I found Aura of Anhur and Chillfang's Binder to work for the whole place. Immune to fire, 120% electric, 120% cold, 95% sonic (120 if I had vandalar plate), 95% acid, with DR 50/- to acid from the boots. 25% magic also. Note that my build is a planewalker so has 5% to all elements rather than an arctic dwarf which has 25% to cold. Replacing the bracers with Brazen Defiance or similar gives 10% less to all elements but adds 10% physical and +8 regen -- there's plenty of elemental coverage to make this a good option.
For DB I found using Tempus Left shield combined with Aura of Anhur and Freezeweavers rings to mean: Zero damage from Abi's fire and magic, Zero damage from lost souls cold and neg, Zero damage from hitting Barbed devils piercing and neg. The AC drop to 122 (or 126 with Girding) is a non-issue there, and it's pleasant to hit barbs with impunity. For beholders I use the same rings but pentavite shield as usual and you can tank multiple devotee's quite handily.
In some ways Claus's setup of Unitary Focus, Boots of Bastion, and Clasps of the Forewarned is superior. The bracers give all the crucial immunities, and the helm maxes out reflex and will saves. I've found having both amulet and bracer slots open for any swaps desired is handy and the ability to pump up all elements another 10-15% when needed is nice. For Hells where you want Fear immunity, I think Lich amulet, Unitary Focus helm, Boots of Bastion, and the Brazen Defiance or similar would be best. For non-Hells where Fear isn't important, I'd probably use Elemental and Clasps.
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Post by Senaattori on Feb 22, 2007 11:40:24 GMT
Best STR build ever I coudl say ;D good AC and Dmg immunity and tons of HP ^^ cons are low ab and and dmg...
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Post by Yomi on Feb 26, 2007 22:38:21 GMT
I finally broke down and took level 60. Since I am taking him to Hells a lot, I decided to max out saves instead of going for more str. Unfortunately he got to 57 before legendary saves came out so he's missing 7 reflex from what it could have been. His final saves are 65 fort, 62 reflex, and 64 will -- spending 5 total feats on saves. This is more than enough for anything other than Hells (indeed he did fine up through Phleg with 4 less than this on all and without even maxing reflex and will via stats).
For Hells I haven't looked closely at the Dis and beyond battleaxes, but I think with DB weapons scimitar would do more damage on things down there. You lose magic for divine which is a very good trade for Hells, and positive for piercing. That trade seems to be the right thing for Hells though it is likely a bit worse for non-Hells.
A tip: if you use a slashing weapon such as battleaxe or scimitar, get a wizard to make you some keen scrolls. With your bard levels and/or UMD you can use them yourself. They last a very long time -- reading one at the start of a Tiamat run I find it's still on after the run is over. You'll still need GMW and FW/DF from a caster, but at least you can keen yourself. As Claus indicated much earlier, don't forget things like gust, mindblank, black blades, greater sanctuary, stone to flesh, and other scrolls you can use.
Going to Phleg and getting ready for Stygia, combined with Claus's very helpful post made me fiddle with his equipment.
Martin's Mauler (DB battleaxe, haven't got the Dis one yet) Pentavite Shield Belt of Bestial Resilience (CON, STR, divine DR 30/-) Ectoplasmic Weave Unitary Focus (DEX, WIS) Searing Tongue (UR acid boots)
This combination, before adding armor, bracers, and amulet, gives immunities to mind, death, knockdown, disease, and sneak. The major immunity not covered is level drain. Wearing Cold Feet (UR cold boots) would drop KD but add level drain and paralysis immunity. Make sure some part of your equipment has this (e.g. Clasps of the Forewarned, Lich King amulet, or plate).
For plate I use one of Arakin's Casement (25% acid, thunderclap immune), Valheru (25% cold, meteor immune), Vandalar (25% sonic), or Penumbrium plate (implosion immune but only 10% piercing). I managed to acquire the various beholder plates which does help out on elemental immunities. Also, Valheru plate adds level drain immunity so using this with the UR acid boots covers all major immunities and adds immunity to meteor swarm as well. Alternately Arakin's combined with the cold boots covers them.
Generic setup that will tank almost anywhere fine: - Valheru (25% cold) or Arakin (25% acid) - Brazen Defiance bracers - Elemental amulet - Aura of Anhur UR ring (25% magic, 75% sonic, 50% cold) - Eye of the Rhemoraz UR ring or Caustic Sound rare ring orChillfang's Binder rare ring.
That setup lets you tank all of pyramid without changing rings, not requiring shunt, and taking little to no elemental kickback. Other ring combinations are possible -- any combination covering acid, cold, and sonic works and using UR or pyramid rings to get some exotic immunity added just helps out. With Arakin's, Anhur, and Rhemoraz this give on my PW: 85% acid, 135% cold, 110% elec, immune fire, 85% sonic, 25% magic, 25% positive, with DR 20/- to all and DR 50/- to acid. Using Chillfang instead of Rhemoraz would give more acid coverage but drop the positive. In anywhere outside of Hells 85% + DR 50/- acid is more than enough. Also with this setup you should have, depending on your str modifier, about 70-75% physical damage immunity + damage resistance 10/- + damage reduction of 15/- from DD levels. Even more against bludgeoning (add 5% plus dr 20/-). Also note you do not need all this super equipment to do pyramid with this build. You can do fine with penumbrium plate, pentavite shield, and non-UR rings / amulet. Having fire and electric covered completely as well as high AC and physical immunity makes this a fun tank for the place. All you're missing is concealment to make heartseekers miss more often.
For beholders I would suggest:: - Vandalar's plate (25% sonic, or other) - Aura of Anhur ring (75% sonic, 25% magic) - 25% magic ring - Beldoin's Spellturner amulet (10% magic now) - Brazen Defiance bracers or some elemental DR ones if you aren't wearing Vandalar's or Elemental amulet
which should mean zero magic and sonic damage, so the only things that should hurt at all are the acolytes who strip your neg protection then zap you. With your hp this is not a big issue. Without Beldoin's you might have to drink a heal or two when storming the rooms with multiple devotees. Without the Anhur ring you can still do it using a regular sonic ring but you're going to have to be a lot more wary of the devotees.
For DB I'd suggest: - Valheru plate (for the 25% cold) - any amulet you desire, maybe Elemental - Brazen Defiance bracers - any two 25% magic rings that also give 50% or more cold - Tempus Left shield for the DR 25/- piercing or Deva's Tear (DR 20/-)
Since you're fire immune you really only have to worry about neg, cold, and piercing. Use neg pots or similar to cover the neg damage. Using any plate with 25% piercing (not the Penumbrium plate) and a piercing high DR shield should result in little to no kickback from hitting barbed devils. With Ecto Weave and two 25% magic rings you won't take any magic kickback. If you can get cold protection to 100% or 80%+dr 20/- you won't take any cold kickback either. Freezeweaver is an excellent rare ring to keep handy as 25% cold never hurts. The UR ring Aura of Anhur with 25% magic and 50% cold is, as usual, very nice. If you don't have enough cold you could use the Valiant Honor Shield to add 25% cold knowing that you may take a little damage from hitting the barbed devils (though still far less than most other characters hitting them).
For early levels of Hells I'd go with the generic setup with some minor fiddling in sections. There are places where Fear immunity is a big deal. A lot of the lower levels you might want it on all the time and some places like Dispater's chamber it is highly recommended. I use a Mind Ward +10 rare amulet for this, but you could also use a Lich King Phylactory amulet or Touch of the Grave bracers. There are probably other ways to cover this.
For Avernus you can easily trade out a ring for the breach immunity ring if it really matters to you. I didn't find the Cornagon's dispelling on my tank very often and if they do it's more annoying than devestating on this toon anyway -- not like an EV build. For Dis and and Min I found myself keeping the Anhur ring on all the time but swapping the other ring (using hotkeys). Realistically you don't need to do this. If there are ungrabbed Raks around then a mord ring is nice to have on. If you're hitting Hamatula's then a Freezeweaver or other magic ring cuts down the kickback a lot. Generically the Eye of the Rhemoraz ring covers your acid and positive or use Chillfang's (the positive is nice for Kytons, machines, cinderscales, and Fierna). I know very little about Stygia but expect cold damage and wear penumbrium plate to keep from being imploded.
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