The casting Bird (38Cleric/1Pala/1Monk)

[mescalino]

After being on HG for a few weeks now having 2 immortals of which my lich is bad (was my first one) And my weapon master is good but has serious saving issues i came back to my favorite class the Cleric!
I have seen a few builds somewhat similar to this one but not exactly like this. The plan is to make this one survivable in hell. Since HG is much of a party server i didn't take real notice in the order of picking feats so that will can be swapped if needed.

The casting Bird (38Cleric/1Pala/1Monk)
Race: Kenku(human) (-1 STR, -1 Int, +4 Wis)
Allign: Lawful good

Domains: Fire and Magic

Wisdom 18 -> 22 Race
Intell 13 -> 12 Race (this Will give you 4 skill points each lvl)
Con 14
Cha 10

Motivation: HG is all about the saves I'm sacrificing hp for savings.
If you get con +12 from items you'll end at 560hp at lvl40 and an extra 280 when hitting 60 (lvl up and bonus from items included) Ending with a 840hp for a caster cleric Which isn't bad i think.
EDIT: Changed the stats a bit ccording to below info from posters

8 Feats pre epic:
Toughness, Luck of heroes
Combat casting, Spell Penetration, Gr spell pen.
Spell focus, Gr spell focus Evocation
Gr spell focus Abjuration


7 Epic feats + 6 Bonus= 13 feats Epic:
Epic spell penetration
Epic Spell focus Evocation
Epic spell focus Abjuration
Impr. Combat casting
Armor skin
Great wisdom 8x

7 Legendary Feats:
Great Wisdom 9-10
Legendary spell focus Evocation
Legendary Spell penetration
Legendary Reflex
Stil SPell
Empower spell


Skill points:
43 Concentration
42 Discipline (taken on pala and monk lvl)
43 Heal
40 Tumble (these are taken on your monk lvl at lvl 39)
4 free points pick whatever you like.
At legendary boost con and spellcraft

Some pluses:
Very high wisdom: 64 and if I'm informed right can be boosted by 2 using an item. This will give you a very good DC especially in the focused schools.
Saves will be good Fortitude near 60 and will near 70 (items etc included) Reflexes is not your primary save so i expect near 50 maybe that can be boosted by the 2 reflex feats. (this including cha bonus and items with bonus)
Naked AC 19, not to shaggy for a caster cleric

Downside:
Mediocre hp but on the other side he's a caster standing in the back surrounded by a wall of dwarfs
Might be somewhat unbalanced until reaching lvl 40

So bring on the feedback and be nice I'm only on HG for about two Weeks and this is my first 'serious' attempt on a real good character without use of an UR or BUR sub-race.

The numbers are done out of my head so they might vary somewhat.

Made some changes in the feats.
I am currently without the Wis artifact and my saves are (fully equiped) 61/61/82
Been in two layers of hell and he seems to do ok. Hope to get the artifact anytime soon so my DC will increase another point as my will save but thats less importand as its in his 80+

[bort]

Hey, Just wanted to say that 10 constitution is very low.
For a cleric (given that their defensive buffs are the weakest of all the casters), it's suicide. Especially in the hells.

You could drop your charisma slightly (10 is good for a subrace with no charisma boost, even 8 is ok) allowing you to put points back into constitution. With +12 charisma from gear (and/or Eagle's Splendor) you'll still get a nifty boost to your saves.

I'd suggest dropping all but Legendary Spell Focus in Evocation (implosion and earthquakes). Legendary Spell Focus really isn't required for any other spell focuses with Clerics, and they're tight enough on feats anyway (especially if you're building with hells in mind).

With my last cleric (built specifically for hells) I took Lightning, Epic *and* Legendary Reflexes and you might want to consider doing the same. Drastic i know, but this is the hells we're talking about - i suspect reflex saves of 50ish is really far too low (coupled with 10 constitution and i suspect you'll be getting res'd alot during dragon fights - after each breath probably, rather than healing those around you who need it).

Skills. Drop spellcraft, because it counts into the +20 cap to saves, and you really will be kicking yourself if you miss out on Heal which (since an update to the spell) adds a hefty amount of regen to anyone in your party (including yourself) hit by one of your healing circles, (a frequently used spell in hell).
Concentration, Discipline and Tumble - right on. You might even want to Epic Skill Focus Discipline too.

Definately take Still Spell if you can squeeze it in; it's great for another layer of Healing Circles or Earthquakes. Epic mage armor and Epic Warding can be found on various items in the mod, the latter is found on the Dachy staffs and both are on the Cleric UR staff. As said before, clerics are tight on feats, you don't have room for those two, imo.

Regarding the "standing in the back / wall of dwarfs" comment, you'll probably find it doesn't quite work out like that. Yeah, some of the time you can stay in greater sactuary and cast healing circle (in hell), which is very helpful and greatly appreciated by those you're healing, but other times you'll have to implode stuff (yep, get right up to the front) and for a class which has incredible offensive power, i think you'd regret it later if you cripple one of it's primary defenses - hitpoints.
Infact I suspect playing to level 55 with 10 constitution as a cleric will be frustrating to say the least.

Sorry if that all comes across a little harsh, not saying your build is bad, merely adding my experience from having screwed up a few caster clerics in the past (my favourite class too .

EDIT: I'd highly recommend checking out Yue's General Effective Building Guidelines (click here) for some great advice on builds (general and class specific).
If at all possible, I'd suggest getting Toughness.

Anyway, hope some of that is of some use to you, and that you enjoy your Cleric however you make it

[mescalino]

Thanks. I have never been in hell and that is the reason that before i started making him i posted my idea here first.
You are right that for example on a sissy run clerics are up-front on the bridge casting implosins at will.

And no you are not being harsh. You say why something bad is and tell how to improve it that is simply called constructive feedback.

Int. would then have to be 11 as i get -1 from being kenku
That and degrading cha to 10 will give me enouh points to get my con to 15 ending at 14 cause kenku gives -1

So i drop 2 legendary focusses, get the 2 reflex feats add still spell. add epic skill focus Discipline
i have one free feat to spend, maybe i'll use it on epi skill heal as it is so importand.

so at lvl 40 my skills will be:
43 concentr
42 Discipline
20 Heal
20 Spelcraft
40 Tumble
(the above can't be made as i only have 43*3=129 skillpoints)

At the legend lvls i boost conc. heal and when possible disc. as it is a cross-class skill.
(yes high reflexes are great with dragons, my friend can solo dachi(as many probably can) mainly because of the high reflexes.)

[dodrudon]

Edited: fixed a bad error

"Kenku" (secret subrace) - no race requirement (changes Appearance)
STR -1, INT -1, WIS +4, free feat: Lightning Reflexes. free feat: Spell Focus - Abjuration

Kenku does not get -1 to Con, and they also get two bonus feats. Very useful.

I'm working on a Kenku Cleric now, and I've got the following planned:
Stats:
Str 9->8
Dex 8
Con 14
Wis 18->22
Int 13->12
Cha 10

Pre-Epic:
Combat Casting
Lighting Reflexes (free)
Spell Foci: Evo, Ench, Abj (free)
Greater Spell Foci: Evo, Ench, Abj
Silent Spell, Maximize Spell

Epic Feats:
Improved Combat Casting
Epic Spell Foci: Evo, Abj, Div (from book), Ench
Spell Penetration, Greater, Epic
Great Wisdom x6

Legendary:
Legendary Spell Penetration
Legendary Focus: Evo
Legendary Reflexes
Great Wisdom x4

(Another option is to pick up two of the following instead of CC and ICC: Empower Spell, Toughness, Armor Skin, Epic Skill Focus Discipline.)
(Alternatively, you can drop Enchantment to pick up the three feats listed, and keep CC and ICC.)
(Of course you could always pick up Epic Reflexes and/or Epic Fortitude, but they aren't really needed as long as you have a bard that negates Hell's save penalties.)
(See highergroundpoa.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=Tavern&action=display&n=1&thread=3623 for save info.)

Take paladin any level you want (early on for Martial Weapon and saves, or later on to get spells faster). Take monk at 40. On all levels, max Heal and Concentration. On the last monk level, max Disc and Tumble as well (tumble to 40 only). You end up with 2 spare skill points.

Naturally, your will saves will be through the roof. Your fort and reflex saves are 66 and 65 (max stats, including Cha, at level 60). You'll have the maximum spell DC you can have without a BUR race. Legendary Evo means you get the most Implode DC possible (again without a BUR race). With 4 epics, you get Aegis (abj, protects against exotics), Miracle (div, a MUST HAVE for clerics, it rezzes + 1000 temp HP to entire party, clerics without this are like druids without shunt), Girding (ench, adds 4 AC for all party members, also this focus gives you +13 GMW), and Conversion (evo, a side effect from having maxed implodes, dominates a creature).

Enjoy

[bort]

What Dod posted looks really good..

Personally, I'd probably drop a couple of Great Wis feats in LLs for Epic Skill Focus Discipline and Armor Skin. That's just my opinion though, with careful gear selection (enough items with +Discipline) the former may not be necessary. I'm of the opinion "the more the merrier" with AC, but on the other hand, characters who sacrifice a little defensiveness for more power are often the most fun and challenging to play

(I took the more defensive route with my cleric - only 3 epics including the book and I dropped 2 Wisdom feats (leaving me 1 DC shy of the maximum possible with the subrace I used) in order to get my defenses up slightly - but I didn't have the handy free feats that Kenku gets and might have built closer to what Dod has posted if I had.)

If you do drop any Great Wis feats, make sure you end on an even number of Wisdom (same goes for other stats too), odd numbers are generally wasted feats/stat points- 11 con is essentially the same as 10 con for example).

Dod: Did you consider swapping Luck of Heroes for Toughness (always nice) and taking Epic Reflexes instead of Legendary Luck? I think that would still leave you with good saves..
(My level 60 cleric has F63 R65 W79 with base stats of 16con, 8dex, 52wis (after wisdom artifact) 10 cha and all the Reflex save feats). I think if you went the same route, you'd end with similar saves, main difference I can spot being -1 Fort for lower starting con.

[dodrudon]

Losing Legendary Luck would drop Fort to 57.

I could drop Luck of Heroes, pick up Epic Fort, drop Legendary Luck to grab Epic Reflexes. However, this would have the same effect as taking both Luck feats (except that Will would be 4 lower).

For a defensive-oriented Cleric, I'd drop Enchant focus, giving you three feats to pick up Epic Reflex, Epic Fortitude, and Toughness or Armor Skin. However, note that Enchant will give you +4 AC.... Also note:

Aid:
adds additional temporary hit points equal to the caster's heal skill

which means a single Aid spell adds more HP than Toughness ever will.

[bort]

How did end up with 57?
My cleric with no Fort feats or Luck feats 10 cha and 16 con finished with 63 Fort.
So with the luck feats, you should have:
+4 for Luck of Heroes and Legendary Luck.
-1 for having lower starting con.
Which is 66. Take off the luck feats (4) and you should still have 62..

[Raj]

13 pre epic ( 19 cleric + 1 pally )
10 epic
5 LL
20 items
2 base con
6 from +12 con item
1 luck of heroes
and that's 57

he simply forgot about charisma bonus add +6 from items
fort is 63, no need to use another feat if u ask me ^^

reflex is 6 base + 10 epic + 5 LL + 20 items +5 dex +9 feat(s) +1 luck +6 cha item = 62, 65 with legendary luck

[dodrudon]

CBC shows Fort at 26 and Reflex at 18 at level 40. That's with Luck of Heroes and Lightning Reflexes.

Fort:
26 Base
+3 Legendary Luck
+20 Bonus
+12 Stats (including Cha)
=61

Reflex:
18 base
+3 Legendary Luck
+20 Bonus
+12 Stats
+7 Legendary Reflexes
=60

Oh snap... I guess I TOTALLY forgot LL bonuses to saves =P

I guess that lets you drop both Lucks for more feats, and still end up with one more base save than I listed above. Yay! Toughness and Armor Skin.... annnd crap now I hafta rebuild from LEVEL ONE!!! =*(

[bort]

dodrudon said:

Will:
18 base
+3 Legendary Luck
+20 Bonus
+12 Stats
+7 Legendary Reflexes
=60

Oops?
Would be cool to see your final build with feats shifted around; if you don't mind...?

[dodrudon]

Rar slavedriver!!

I guess I'd take (Improved) Combat Casting in place of the two lucks.

I edited my original post for the build to take ICC instead, and fixed the explanations, and also added these notes:

(Another option is to pick up two of the following instead of CC and ICC: Empower Spell, Toughness, Armor Skin.)
(Alternatively, you can drop Enchantment to pick up the three feats listed, and keep CC and ICC.)
(Of course you could always pick up Epic Reflexes and/or Epic Fortitude, but they aren't really needed as long as you have a bard that negates Hell's save penalties.)
(See highergroundpoa.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=Tavern&action=display&n=1&thread=3623 for save info.)

[bort]

dodrudon said:

Rar slavedriver!!

dodrudon said:

Edited: fixed a bad error

Rofl.

[mescalino]

HEHEHE Shows i shouldn't plan this in the middle of the night

Ill drop two legendary focusses (only keep evo)
Im going to take Luck of heroes at the start.
Taking toughness (60 exra hp )
Sillent spell
And since disc. will be relatively low epic skill focus
Will take them all PRE legendary and move the Great Wisdom to legandary.

Its a tight fit but should work nicely.

Again thanks for correcting me and all the advise. I should end up with one mean cleric
10*60=600 +60(toughness)= 660hp + 240 (con bonus) =900HP

Thanks for the tips.

Oh, if you see a character by the name: Dr. Lovebird say hi cause that will be this cleric build

[dodrudon]

Oops, I forgot about ESF Discipline! If you drop two focuses, I'd take CC, ICC, ESF:Disc, Toughness, Armor Skin, and one of your choice.

[illandous]

I personally use the defensive casting button all the time and drop CC and ICC for two more feats. 2 more Great Wisdoms. I also only went 11 Int.

I went this path.

borges said:

I went human Kenku, which is 131 points:

43 concentration
43 discipline
40 tumble
5 heal

In legendary levels, you get 3 points per level and spend 1 on concentration and 2 on heal, so final skills are 63 conc and 45 heal.

So I will not see the regen on my healing circle spell kick-in untill higher LL's.

Also I amd going Epic Div, Evo, and Abj. I have not decided between the Necro book or the Enchant book yet.

I will go for Epic Reflexes and LL Reflexes.