|
Post by xian on Jun 1, 2007 4:23:49 GMT
Turk is my modified version of this build, i have 30 assassin and esf-discipline for 95 with halfling penalty to str after gear. a bard is your best friend, but its certainly respectable i believe if you're going for the dev crit, esp with a dexer, focus on dc and then go defense ala saves, and then if you can, squeeze in the locks/traps abilities i sacrificed epic weapon focus, prowess, and 2 great dex feats to get my saves over 60 and epic skill focus feats for three skills. also: i think if you give up on Bur chests, then monk might be better as a starting class for rogue, because it gives you 3 more saves. That's quite a bit of AB to sacrifice. What sub-race did you specifically use, and how does your final ab look unbuffed and buffed (and what level)? I'm playing this build now, and am wondering about the saves myself, and how I'm going to get them high enough for the hells. The AB makes me wonder if he'll even be able to hit anything.
|
|
|
Post by chainlink on Jun 1, 2007 8:03:19 GMT
He's quite capable of hitting stuff as I've partied with him up to Malbolge.
|
|
|
Post by thedomicron on Jun 2, 2007 8:17:58 GMT
well, i started with half-kyton and managed to get my ab to 56 with mundane weapon at level 60. with a respectable gmw, ab shouldn't be a problem in the LL areas, and in hells, with bardsong, curse song, prayer, and gmw, you should be hitting just fine enough to dev your targets.
keep in mind, you are an assassin, you should be hunting specific targets looking to dev them and move on, not sit there and tank. for hamatulas, cornies, erinyes, who represent my main targets (most important or satisfying to dev crit) my ab generally works out just fine.
as for your saves, well of course they're important, but remember that you aren't a tank, you can't run up and sit there absorbing dmg. if your saves are lower, just be mindful of which saves the nasty enemies test, and avoid them. just as i avoid pit fiends unless ABSOLUTELY necessary, so should you avoid enemies with high will saves, if you have low will etc. not that you can ignore it, or that situations won't arise where you have no choice, but smart play helps.
bottom line: chainlink's template here is awesome, and if you play it smart, you might find a surprisingly durable, effective toon
addendum: when i first started playing this toon, i felt that half-kyton would make the only effective assassin in the hells, but i believe that if you can get saves in the high 50's, ab in the mid-50's, get a few helpful burs, and play it smart, you ought to be just fine in the hells. just remember your job in the party
|
|
|
Post by xian on Jun 11, 2007 18:01:41 GMT
Am I doing something wrong here? At level 40, my naked saves are 20, 39, 17 - fort, reflex, will. So far it doesn't seem very hells capable.
|
|
|
Post by gruntgruntson on Jun 11, 2007 22:54:26 GMT
With the right equipment, you can hit the +20 cap on saves, and get bonuses to saves in LL, along with +12 Stats from equipment (netting +6 to saves if you wear Dex, Wis or Con gear)effectively adding +31 at level 60. Assuming you've taken the appropriate pre-epic feats, you can buy Legendary Save feats for +7 I have a wraith and Half-fiend version of this, and have fort and will saves at 58-61 (can't remember) which is just about Hells Ready.
|
|
|
Post by thedomicron on Jun 12, 2007 17:02:22 GMT
well i should imagine that since the hells become accessible at level 55, that at level 40 you wouldn't be ready
i had to take a couple of legendary saves feats, and gear and LL should raise it as well.
|
|
|
Post by unnone on Jun 13, 2007 15:01:01 GMT
For your saves at 60, a good rule of thumb is to take your saves at 40 and add 31 to them ( 20 from items, 6 from equipment stat bonuses, and 5 from bonuses inherent in legendary levels). This has to be adjusted for CoT, obviously. Paladins and blackguards also get an additional boost for whatever +12 cha gives them on the bonus chart. (Half Orc blackguards obviously don't get the full +6 that should theoretically give, for example).
|
|
|
Post by khalaq on Jun 13, 2007 21:03:20 GMT
Those of us new to Higher Grounds don't have access to non-secret subraces, which means we have to adapt the builds we find on the forums, and that's not easy. We've never seen Legendary Levels, and the Testing Grounds only goes up to level 40. For this reason, it would be nice to see some "newbie" options in the Character Builds section.
I've been trying to create some kind of Devastating Critical Assassin using an available, non-secret subrace, and this is what I've come up with, thus far. I tried to finish with a character who would be useful in the Hells, but since I've never seen them, I can only guess. I'm hoping you folks will lend me the benefit of your experience and tweaking wisdom so that I can get started on actually play an Assassin on HG. (please please please)
-Khalaq
-------------------------------------------------
THE LITTLE BACKSTABBER (2 ROGUE/8 FIGHTER/30 ASSASSIN)
GOAL: An assassin that can support a party in Hell by looking for Dev Crit opportunities and dealing with some chests/traps. Fighting style amounts to "attack them when they ain't looking, and if they turn to face you, run."
PROS: --Increased number of criticals increases chance of Dev. Crit. --Can slip into and out of combat easily, due to small size --Hard to hit, yet able to dish out some damage (Dev.Crit., Poison) --Able to wear all armor types and use a shield --Can disable traps, open chests, and spot hidden goodies --Spell Resistance of 45 doesn't hurt --Neither does having Evasion
CONS: --Crit imm./Sneak imm. mobs result in gimped damage output --Discipline??? What's that? --Saves are a bit low, especially Will --Can't carry gear until you find some STR buffs --No Improved Evasion (waaaaaaaaaa...!!!) --Not designed for solo play (ie. meat shield required) --Stunned assassin == Scooby Snak
*STATISTICS* (up to level 40)
-Race: Halfling -Subrace: Deep Halfling -Alignment: Neutral Evil (or some variation of Evil, anyway)
STARTING (with subrace) STR: 8 (6) DEX: 20 (20) CON: 15 (16) INT: 14 (14) WIS: 8 (8) CHA: 8 (8)
Darkvision, Fearless, Keen Sense, Good Aim, Lucky, Small Stature, Skill Affinity Listen, Skill Affinity Move Silently, Spell Resistance
FINAL NAKED STATS (at lvl 40) STR: 6 DEX: 38 CON: 16 INT: 14 WIS: 8 CHA: 8
AC: 34 HPs: 432 Attack Bonus: +44... or +42/+42... Damage: 1-4 (Critical 15-20 x 2) Fort: 25 Reflex: 37 Will: 21 BAB: 26 Spell Res.: 45
Feats -------------- 1 Weapon Finesse, Weapon Prof. (Exotic) 2 Weapon Focus (Kukri) 3 Two-Weapon Fighting 4 DEX +1, Weapon Specialization (Kukri) 6 Ambidexterity 8 DEX +1 9 Toughness 10 Improved Critical (Kukri) 12 DEX +1, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting 15 Iron Will, Blind Fight 16 DEX +1 18 Great Fortitude 20 DEX +1 21 Armour Skin 24 DEX +1, Epic Weapon Focus (Kukri), Great Dex 1 27 Epic Prowess (or some other Epic Feat) 28 DEX +1, Great Dex 2 30 Great Dex 3 32 DEX +1, Great Dex 4 33 Great Dex 5 36 DEX +1, Epic Will, Great Dex 6 39 Great Dex 7 40 DEX +1, Great Dex 8
Final Skill Point Allocation -------------------------------- Hide: 8(22) (Assassin req.) Move Silently: 8(24) (Assassin req.) Disable Trap: 43(45) Open Lock: 43(57) Pick Pocket: 15(29) Search: 43(45) Spot 42(41) (Optional) Tumble: 40(54) Use Magic Device: 2(1) (Optional; useful with + to UMD items)
Full Build Order ----------------------
Lvl 01: FIGHTER: Weapon Finesse; Weapon Proficiency (Exotic)
Lvl 02: FIGHTER: Weapon Focus (Kukri);
Lvl 03: FIGHTER: Two-Weapon Fighting;
Lvl 04: FIGHTER: Dexterity +1 (21); Weapon Specialization (Kukri);
Lvl 05: ROGUE: Disable Trap +8, Hide +8, Move Silently +8; Open Lock +7; Tumble +5; Use Magic Device +2; Sneak Attack (+1d6)
Lvl 06: FIGHTER: Ambidexterity
Lvl 07: ASSASSIN: Disable Trap +2; Open Lock +3; Tumble +5; Death Attack (+1d6); Use Poison;
Lvl 08: ASSASSIN: Dexterity +1 (22); Disable +1; Open +2; Search +3; Uncanny Dodge I; Poison Save I; Ghostly Visage;
Lvl 09: ASSASSIN: Disable +1; Open +1; Search +4; Toughness; Death Attack (+2d6);
Lvl 10: FIGHTER: Improved Critical (Kukri)
Lvl 11: ASSASSIN: Disable +2; Open +2; Search +5; Poison Save II;
Lvl 12: ASSASSIN: Dexterity +1 (23); Disable +1; Open +1; Tumble +5; Improved Two-Weapon Fighting; Uncanny Dodge II; Death Attack
(+3d6); Darkness;
Lvl 13: ROGUE: Disable +1; Open +1; Search +2; Evasion;
Lvl 14: FIGHTER:
Lvl 15: FIGHTER: Iron Will; Blind Fight;
Lvl 16: ASSASSIN: Dexterity +1 (24); Disable +3; Open +3; Search +4; Poison Save III;
Lvl 17: ASSASSIN: Disable +1; Open +1; Search +1; Tumble +5; Death Attack (+4d6); Invisibility;
Lvl 18: ASSASSIN: Disable +1; Open +1; Search +1; Great Fortitude; Poison Save IV;
Lvl 19: ASSASSIN: Disable +1; Open +1; Search +1; Improved Invisibility; Death Attack (+5d6);
Lvl 20: ASSASSIN: Dexterity +1 (25); Disable +1; Open +1; Pick Pocket +15; Search +1; Uncanny Dodge III; Poison Save V;
Lvl 21: ASSASSIN: Disable +1; Open +1; Search +1; Spot +3; Armor Skin; Death Attack (+6d6);
Lvl 22: ASSASSIN: Disable +1; Open +1; Search +1; Tumble +5; Poison Save VI;
Lvl 23: ASSASSIN: Disable +1; Open +1; Search +1; Spot +3; Death Attack (+7d6);
Lvl 24: ASSASSIN: Dexterity +1 (26); Disable +1; Open +1; Search +1; Spot +3; Epic Weapon Focus (Kukri); Great Dexterity I (27);
Lvl 25: ASSASSIN: Spot +6; Death Attack (+8d6);
Lvl 26: ASSASSIN: Spot +6;
Lvl 27: ASSASSIN: Spot +1; Tumble +5; Epic Prowess; Death Attack (+9d6);
Lvl 28: ASSASSIN: Dexterity +1 (29); Disable +2; Open +2; Spot +2; Great Dexterity II (30)
Lvl 29: ASSASSIN: Disable +2; Open +2; Spot +2; Death Attack (+10d6);
Lvl 30: ASSASSIN: Disable +1; Open +1; Search +2; Spot +2; Great Dexterity III (31)
Lvl 31: ASSASSIN: Disable +1; Open +1; Search +2; Spot +2; Death Attack (+11d6)
Lvl 32: ASSASSIN: Dexterity +1 (32); Disable +1; Tumble +5; Great Dexterity IV (33)
Lvl 33: ASSASSIN: Disable +1; Open +1; Search +2; Spot +2; Great Dexterity V (34): Death Attack (+12d6);
Lvl 34: ASSASSIN: Disable +1; Open +1; Search +2; Spot +2;
Lvl 35: ASSASSIN: Disable +1; Open +1; Search +2; Spot +2; Death Attack (+13d6);
Lvl 36: ASSASSIN: Dexterity +1 (35); Disable +2; Open +2; Search +1; Spot +1; Epic Will; Great Dexterity VI (36)
Lvl 37: ASSASSIN: Disable +1; Spot +1; Tumble +5; Death Attack (+14d6);
Lvl 38: ASSASSIN: Disable +1; Open +2; Search +2; Spot +1;
Lvl 39: ASSASSIN: Disable +1; Open +2; Search +3; Death Attack (+15d6); Great Dexterity VII (37);
Lvl 40: ASSASSIN: Dexterity +1 (14); Disable +1; Open +1; Search +1; Spot +3; Great Dexterity VIII (38);
====================
|
|
|
Post by borges on Jun 13, 2007 21:52:55 GMT
Khalaq, your build looks pretty good. I'm following a similar template with a BUR subrace, so you're doing something right!
A few comments: 1. If you're not going WM you don't need 14 INT. I'd move 2 points to WIS to help your Will save.
2. You get 7 additional feats during Legendary Levels. Always account for these in your builds, since frankly no one cares what you look like at lvl 40. Especially with those saves.
3. Since you've already taken Iron Will and Great Fort, you have the Legendary versions available to you. +7 to those saves is critical to making this toon Hells-capable.
4. Take your last fighter level at 20 so that you can take 23 discipline.
5. Drop Spot and maybe PP for Discipline and UMD. Max tumble, since it is a class skill for you during LL.
6. Drop weapon specialization. +2 damage not so useful. Have you seen a Dustbone weapon?
7. If you really want to open any chest in the game, you will need Epic Skill Focus: Search and Disable Trap. To my knowledge, this only becomes necessary in the deepest levels of the Hells.
8. Consider fitting in Epic Skill Focus: Discipline. Nasty things happen to the undisciplined in various legendary areas.
Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss further. I'm literally just starting on this toon and would be happy to discuss ideas.
Cheers, Perin
|
|
|
Post by thedomicron on Jun 14, 2007 1:42:16 GMT
borges' points are really solid
the fighter levels give you higher ab, and plenty of feats to play around with. you want to at least take legendary will and legendary fort on your guy. if your saves are still low, consider legendary luck also. skillwise: drop spot and PP, and make sure you can max discipline at 20 (and hopefully crossclass it to max in LL) make sure to max OL, DT, and search, as well as tumble and UMD. you need it around 35 for non-hells, and higher if you plan to sojourn into the hells.
if you can clear all of those skills with less than 14 int, dump those points into wisdom.
for feats: you need to take the last 2 dex feats in LL, as well as legendary will and fort, at least, then take epic skill focus discipline, find trap and search. if you find yourself running low on saves, drop weapon spec and take luck of heroes and legendary luck as well.
you look like you got a nice solid build there, good luck to you
|
|
|
Post by khalaq on Jun 14, 2007 5:40:15 GMT
Well, trying to accomodate the suggestions you two made, I come up with the following result.
--Traded 1 AB and 2 damage for +6 to Discipline --Dropped Spot and got Discipline up to 43(41) --Dropped Pick Pocket and dumped the points into UMD --Dropped 5 points on Tumble (-1 AC) to bump UMD to 35(34) --Max'ing UMD would require substituting another skill for it --Moving 2 INT to WIS would mean dropping another skill
The thing I'm wondering is whether or not it is worth crippling my UMD and giving up two feats so I can have a Discipline of 41. That's a lot of effort for an unimpressive level of a skill designed to help me in the event I get hit (something I'll be trying to avoid altogether).
-Khalaq
THE LITTLE BACKSTABBER [final, edited build]
**STATS**
STARTING ------------- STR: 8 (6) DEX: 20 (20) CON: 15 (16) INT: 14 (14) WIS: 8 (8) CHA: 8 (8)
Darkvision, Fearless, Keen Sense, Good Aim, Lucky, Small Stature, Skill Affinity Listen, Skill Affinity Move Silently, Spell Resistance (LVL + 5)
LEVEL 40 --------- STR: 6 DEX: 38 CON: 16 INT: 14 WIS: 8 CHA: 8
AC: 34 HPs: 432 Attack Bonus: +43... or +41/+41... (down by 1) Damage: 1-4 -2 (Critical 15-20 x 2) (down by 2) Fort: 25 Reflex: 37 Will: 21 BAB: 26 Spell Resistance: 45
LEVEL 60 ------------------ STR: 6 DEX: 40 CON: 16 INT: 14 WIS: 8 CHA: 8
HPs: 632 AC: 38 Max AC: 112 (130 with shield) Attack Bonus: +44... or +42/+42... (%16 chance Dev. Crit. @ 49DC with keen) Max AB: +60 to +70 Damage: 1-4 -2(Critical 15-20 x 2)
Fort: 61 Reflex: 64 Will: 61 BAB: 26 Spell Resistance: 65
Saves Detail: Fort: 9+10+5+3(16 CON)+20(items)+2(Great Fort)+5(LL's)+7(Leg Fort) == 61 Reflex: 9+10+5+15(40 DEX)+20(items)+5(LL's) == 64 Will: 9+10+5-1(8 WIS)+20(items+2(Iron Will)+4(Epic Will)+5(LL's)+7(Leg Will) == 61
Feats -------------- 1 Weapon Finesse, Weapon Prof. (Exotic) 2 Weapon Focus (Kukri) 3 Two-Weapon Fighting 4 DEX +1, Skill Focus: Discipline (dropped Weapon Spec.) 6 Ambidexterity 8 DEX +1 9 Toughness 10 Improved Critical (Kukri) 12 DEX +1, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting 15 Iron Will, Blind Fight 16 DEX +1 18 Great Fortitude 20 DEX +1 21 Armour Skin 24 DEX +1, Epic Weapon Focus (Kukri), Great Dex 1 27 Epic Skill Focus: Discipline (dropped Epic Prowess) 28 DEX +1, Great Dex 2 30 Great Dex 3 32 DEX +1, Great Dex 4 33 Great Dex 5 36 DEX +1, Epic Will, Great Dex 6 39 Great Dex 7 40 DEX +1, Great Dex 8 ------------------------------- Legendary Levels: -Greater Dex 9 -Greater Dex 10 -Legendary Will -Legendary Fort (assuming Epic Fort is not a pre-requisite) -ESF: Use Magic Device -ESF: Disable -ESF: Search
Final Skill Point Allocation -------------------------------- Hide:.....................8(23) (Assassin req.) Move Silently:...........8(25) (Assassin req.) Disable Trap:..........63(65) +ESF Discipline:.............31(29) Disc. Total:...........43(41) (+2 Skill Focus and +10 Epic Skill Focus) Open Lock:...........63(78) Search:...............63(65) + ESF Tumble:..............55(70) Use Magic Device:..25(24) + ESF
|
|
|
Post by chainlink on Jun 14, 2007 7:53:34 GMT
You don't need ESF open lock as this is Dex based and ESF gives you +10 to your skill not +4 (SF gives you +4). Unless you can get 34 UMD (including your Cha modifier) there's not a lot of point taking it as this is the requirement for level 9 scrolls (BBoD, TS, etc.). No point taking more than 60 in tumble.
|
|
|
Post by khalaq on Jun 14, 2007 14:47:55 GMT
dOh! That's right, ESF is plus ten. Thanks for the correction.
Assuming for the moment that I want to keep the level 41 Discipline, I could take 8 points from Tumble (dropping my AC by one) and spend my last Legendary Feat on UMD, which would bump that up to a final skill of 35.
[Edited Stats to reflect changes.]
-Khalaq
|
|
|
Post by thedomicron on Jun 14, 2007 17:00:51 GMT
well dropping AC is never suggested, but i think in this case its the right thing to do. using scrolls and such is TREMENDOUSLY important in the hells, and in non-hells areas you can really up the level of your contribution
|
|
|
Post by unnone on Jun 15, 2007 16:30:01 GMT
One thing to remember (and was mentioned earlier in this thread) as an assassin is that you can only hone one weapon. Your offhand will only be a normal weapon.
I would consider splashing a disc class at level 40 to get your disc to 43. Discipline checks enable you to avoid some horrible effects in later areas, inculding hefty attacks on your bank account and extremely reduced performance.
|
|