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Post by mishimayukio on Jun 15, 2007 20:51:41 GMT
Something to also consider is that the offhand attacks are the last 2 in a round. Your first 5 attacks, including the 3 in the first flurry are with your main hand. This means that you have a 50% greater chance to dev crit in the first flurry alone, and when you switch targets it resets the attacks to first flurry again.
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Post by thedomicron on Jun 16, 2007 16:44:03 GMT
mish do you know how dual wielding kamas w/ monk progression affects the order of attacks?
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Post by khalaq on Jun 17, 2007 8:50:48 GMT
One thing to remember (and was mentioned earlier in this thread) as an assassin is that you can only hone one weapon. Your offhand will only be a normal weapon. I can only hone one weapon, but I can poison both, something I can use on those mobs that are crit. immune. And this build does have the option of going one-handed with a shield while maintaining that 20% chance of Dev. Crit. at DC 49. I would consider splashing a disc class at level 40 to get your disc to 43. Discipline checks enable you to avoid some horrible effects in later areas, inculding hefty attacks on your bank account and extremely reduced performance. I did consider that when developing this build, but I decided that weakening the character's main focus (Dev. Crit. Assassin) for a preventive measure wasn't worth it. Frin (my Assassin) will already have a Discipline of 43 with this build, after the Skill Focuses, and significantly weakening her strong offense to make one of her defences only marginally more effective would be counterproductive. When you have no strengths, all you have left are weaknesses. As an Assassin, I'll be looking to backstab, not tank. It would really have been nice to have Spring Attack, so Frin could move in and out of combat at will, but I couldn't fit it in with dual-wield. -Khalaq
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Post by gruntgruntson on Jun 17, 2007 10:54:15 GMT
I can only hone one weapon, but I can poison both, something I can use on those mobs that are crit. immune. And this build does have the option of going one-handed with a shield while maintaining that 20% chance of Dev. Crit. at DC 49. -Khalaq What Poison are you thinking of using? The Custom HG Poison Weapon (Uses Assassin's Invisibility) is once per rest, so only one weapon. I do not know of any decent poisons available otherwise. Maybe I have just missed them. Personally, I do not likethe idea of dual-wield for assassins - I prefer not to take the -2AB penalty, when it is not helping Dev Crits.
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Post by mishimayukio on Jun 17, 2007 15:09:19 GMT
mish do you know how dual wielding kamas w/ monk progression affects the order of attacks? Not sure but I'm guessing it works the same way, with the offhand attacks last. You still don't want to use kamas anyway due to the threat range.
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Post by unnone on Jun 17, 2007 16:07:28 GMT
I can only hone one weapon, but I can poison both, No, you can only poison one weapon per rest. And when you rest, it goes away. Frin (my Assassin) will already have a Discipline of 43 with this build, after the Skill Focuses, At an effective skill of 43, you'll need to max your disc item bonus to avoid some nasty effects. A pally I grouped with whose disc was in the 80's ended up fighting naked and barehanded in a certain area. Even though you are not tanking, you are still going to be attacked, and if something's beating on your group's cleric or mages, you'd better be trying to get it off.
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Post by thedomicron on Jun 17, 2007 18:41:34 GMT
with high conceal and ac, your build will avoid checks which are applied with physical attacks, however if your saves are incredibly low, the chances of you failing them increase as you continue, because you're subjecting yourself to a lot of hits. if you can get your saves, your discipline, and other methods of protection higher, then you significantly reduce your chances of failing, to the point where my assassin has not been slagged, because i can avoid the check often enough, and also because i play smart and stay away from nasty monsters
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Post by khalaq on Jun 18, 2007 23:44:09 GMT
Regarding the HG Poison Weapon Feat, I apparently misread it. That means I won't be doing as much damage with my offhand as originally hoped, but the extra attacks may still be useful in some situations.
Regarding some of the feedback, it would be more helpful to read about suggested improvements/specific changes to the build than to rehash the weaknesses. The first time I posted this build, I listed the major drawbacks to it, so it's not like we haven't raised the issues, already.
Some of the changes which I've already made to my build (as opposed to Chainlink's) have been to drop some unneeded skills in favor of needed ones, and to swap out some feats for others which boost survivability.
From some of the comments given, it makes me wonder if people aren't commenting based upon their experience with other classes. I can only speak for myself, here, but whenever I have tried to play my Assassin like a Fighter, or Shadow Dancer, or even Rogue, it has resulted in quick and certain death. That is why I mentioned my general combat strategy, up front.
I play my Assassin as a "distractor." I try for the Death Attack on a flat-footed opponent and then run. I use my Sneaks (ranged, if necessary) to pull mobs off their target. I scrape whatever is chasing me off onto the party's tanks, giving them attacks of opportunity against the mob. And if I close to melee, it is to land Sneaks and Dev. Crits. until the mob turns on me, and then I'm off again. It is because I spend so much time NOT being engaged by mobs that I prefer halflings, since the small "footprint" of the character lets me slip through doorways/crowds where others would be too big to fit, letting me raise fallen comrades in hard-to-reach places.
As Domicron pointed out, the survivability of this class depends on a high AC, solid saving throws, and choosing your fights. If I had to rely on my Discipline to save me, even a Discipline of 80, I'd spend most of my time face down in the dirt.
-Khalaq
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Post by chainlink on Jun 19, 2007 7:54:39 GMT
I would honestly love to see you carrying out the backstab and run tactic in places like Phlegthoras but I'm afraid if it was a choice between this and taking Turk (Dom's assassin) I know who'd come first in the party queue as I've seen him tank all manner of hells stuff (PF's excepted). And he can open stuff.
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Post by borges on Jun 19, 2007 15:01:37 GMT
I would honestly love to see you carrying out the backstab and run tactic in places like Phlegthoras but I'm afraid if it was a choice between this and taking Turk (Dom's assassin) I know who'd come first in the party queue as I've seen him tank all manner of hells stuff (PF's excepted). And he can open stuff. This is a bit silly. Any difference that you note between a 30 As/8 Fighter/2 Rogue and a 30 As/7 WM/3 Rogue is likely to be based more on play skill than on the build. Dropping WM for fighter levels essentially trades +2 crit range and x1 multiplier for better saves and additional feats (used here for dual wield flexibility). Seems like a reasonable trade, especially if you don't hit on rolls of 10-11 anyway. I'd be interested in hearing from thedom and others on how often you hit on rolls of 10-11 in Hells and other tough areas. If you're not hitting, you're not critting . . . Of course, the data set will be limited, given that Saturday's LL BAB update has complicated matters. Cheers, Perin
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Post by thedomicron on Jun 19, 2007 15:56:21 GMT
here is my build. its half-kyton halfling assassin: PLEASE KEEP IN MIND that i have not been to the hells since the change in ab. more on that after the build
stats: (before racial bonuses) dex - 20 con - 14 wis - 10 int - 14
feats: 1: expertise 3: exotic prof 6: wf-kuk 9: spring attack 12: ww attack 15: finesse 18: toughness 21: armor skin 24: improved critical; Great Dex I 27: blind fight 28: Great Dex II 30: iron will 32: Great Dex III 33: great fort 36: epic will; Great Dex IV 39: epic skill focus discipline 40: Great Dex V 42: Great Dex VI 45: Legendary Will 48: Legendary Fort 51: Epic skill focus discipline 54: Epic Skill Focus 57: Great Dex VII 60: Great Dex VIII
what i did was sacrifice epic weapon focus, prowess, and 2 gr dex feats in order to hit better saves and locks. i'm not sure how well my current ab stacks up, but to answer your questions about my ab i can bet its the same now as it used to be: when i walk in, i hit a little over half the time. when the bard walks in first, i hit all i need to to dev.
play style is not that i run in and go crazy, but its close. the trick for me is to send in the str tanks first, and i'm right behind them. before the tank engages the first monster, i've figured out which enemyi need to take out first with dev (usually something which incapacitates str tanks). this gives me a second to gather myself, and try to position myself favorably, though often i have to go fight right next to monsters which view me as merely a tiny halfling morsel of food
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Post by thedomicron on Jun 19, 2007 16:03:07 GMT
i'll post my gear too, if you care: this is the gear i first went into the hells with, i've since collected a couple of bur items, which help but don't really matter too much in the grand scheme.
Robes of Evernight psi actuator scion of sorcere overwhelming solidarity ecto-plasm weave lich-kings phlactery orudin's eye coal-walker
with this setup: i had maxed my ac, all stats, all the immunities, discipline and my saves. realistically, this gear is not especially expensive, especially for a creature designed to go into the hells.
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Post by chainlink on Jun 19, 2007 16:06:38 GMT
Dual wield is likely to cause you big problems in the Hells with this build due to no monk ac bonus and no shield. The amount of damage you would do with one of the shield ac weapons would be negligible (especially with no potential to dev crit or poison it) and if you used a decent weapon your ac will go even further down the toilet, not to mention the fact that you're still going to have a lower ab than a single weapon user and you'll have spent several feats (which are thin on the ground) to get this.
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Post by thedomicron on Jun 19, 2007 16:15:47 GMT
i agree with chainlink. i believe the best two options are as follows for incorporating fighter levels:
1) fighter/rogue. use a shield, use your extra feats to cover saves and skills for locks/search
2) fighter/monk. give up locks, and dual wield, using fighter feats to cover saves.
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Post by borges on Jun 19, 2007 17:01:07 GMT
i agree with chainlink. i believe the best two options are as follows for incorporating fighter levels: 1) fighter/rogue. use a shield, use your extra feats to cover saves and skills for locks/search 2) fighter/monk. give up locks, and dual wield, using fighter feats to cover saves. You can do option 1 and still take dual-wield feats. I think everyone agrees that you'd be crazy to try and fit dual-wield into a WM build and still be able to open chests. Also, I doubt you'd be dualing much in Hells anyway. It's more about having flexibility in thids and other runs where a well-equipped high level toon can afford to give up some AC. Thedom: No shield feat? If you are 30 As/7 WM/3 Ro, you're not getting it for free.
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