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Post by hiryuu on Mar 21, 2007 5:23:31 GMT
This is a rough draft for a STR-based rogue that can handle front-line duty in Hell, and also open chests and disarm traps. I elected to go with a defense-oriented build. Blackguard is used to boost saves to my target of 60/64/60 (see Mish's post about save DCs). Dwarven Defender has natural damage reduction, +2 AC in a pile (or rather, no +2 ab bonus for the enemy), and is the only full-ab with a strong Will save.
Pros: * Legendary Rogue skills * Legendary Tumble - for extra AC * Solid Hit Points * Very good saves - enough to make anything except Tia breath * Imp Evasion and Slippery Mind to help with misses * 12 Damage Reduction
Cons: * No Legendary Discipline * Needs GREAT equipment - Uses all 6 ability scores, and has minimal dex bonus for Open Lock
Race: Dwarf Subrace: Kolyrut (BUR) Other races/subs will work, but at the expense of saves, damage, or HP.
STR: 15 (20) DEX: 9 (14) CON: 17 (21) INT: 11 (13) WIS: 12 (10) CHA: 12 (10)
Level Progression: 01-08 Rogue: Luck of Heroes, Power Attack, Cleave 09-14 Blackguard: Toughness, Toughness, Weapon Focus 15-20 Defender: Imp Critical, Blind Fight
21-22 Rogue: Armor Skin, Imp Evasion 23-29 Defender: Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Reflex 30-39 Rogue: Epic Will, Slippery Mind, Great Con 1, Epic Focus: Open Lock, Great Str 1, Epic Focus: Disarm Trap, Dmg Reduction 1 40-40 Defender: Epic Prowess
41-60 Rogue: Great Str 2-8
Skills Points: Disable Trap, Discipline, Hide 5, Open Lock, Search, Tumble, Use Magic Device
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Post by phalthallus on Mar 21, 2007 14:25:53 GMT
Sounds like a great idea. Everyone in the Hells needs a rogue (from at least layer 3 down), and you need a strength tank. I've been trying to come up with a combination of the two, first trying to go with a strength-based Assassin. The problem there was hitting 30 levels of assassin to get all of their fun tricks, while not weakening the build. It was really tough without having a BUR subrace, so I started leaning towards a strength-base rogue.
One question that was raised was "Will your Open Lock be high enough if you're not dex-based?". Do you have any idea the difference between YOUR open lock and a dex-based rogue? With the Epic Skill Focus, I'm guessing it's pretty close, but don't have any hard numbers to use.
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Post by alandrian on Mar 21, 2007 14:38:10 GMT
There is a cap of 127 for skill + stat mod + magic + items etc. So you can have 127 + 20 (roll) + lockpicks. The second two do not depend on the build. Lets see if this build reaches 127. It will have 63 for the rogue control class. 50 from items/Song. 10 for the focus. 8 from dex with maxed gear. This will get you 131. So you have hit the 127 with this build.
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Post by hiryuu on Mar 21, 2007 17:46:42 GMT
Legendary Rogue also gets Dex bonuses every 5 levels (+4), so max 133. That's around 5-10 short of a Dex rogue without Epic Skill Focus. Yes, you will need the gloves, amulet, belt, and robes, plus a well-timed Restore, to crack deep Hell chests.
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Post by Balduvard on Mar 26, 2007 3:03:55 GMT
As an alternate version I replaced 4 of the BG levels with DD levels to increase will saves and increase damage reduction by 3 points. Also in LL I dropped two of the great str feats for ESF: Search and Legendary Luck of Heroes. I'm assuming the ESF is needed at later levels since your max Search is going to be 63 + 7 + 50 = 120 without it...unless I've missed something.
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Post by hiryuu on Mar 26, 2007 3:23:00 GMT
8R/6DD/6BG gives you 12/10/9 saves. 8R/10DD/2BG gives you 12/9/9. It does free up 6 points, which can even out your Con and prop up your Dex. Legendary Luck will help, but still leave you slightly short. You are correct that ESF: Search is probably needed in the last couple layers. 18 DD also adds a bonus feat, so you can move Armor Skin over there and free up a general feat.
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Post by Balduvard on Mar 26, 2007 5:06:28 GMT
Note to self: check primary saving throws table more often.
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Post by Balduvard on Mar 26, 2007 6:23:09 GMT
Okay, using that progression (20/2/18) I end up with saves of 69/64/64 using the following progression:
01-08 Rogue: Luck of Heroes, Power Attack, Cleave 09-10 Blackguard: Toughness 11-20 Defender: Weapon Focus, Imp Critical, Blind Fight
21-22 Rogue: Armor Skin, Imp Evasion 23-29 Defender: Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Dmg Reduction 1, Great Con 1 30-39 Rogue: Epic Will, Slippery Mind, Great Str 1, ESF: Open Lock, Great Str 2, ESF: Disarm Trap, ESF: Search 40-40 Defender: Epic Prowess
41-60 Rogue: L.Luck, Great Str 3-8
If you want, you could take the -3 hit to saves and substitute L.Luck for Dmg Reduction 2 (for grand total 18/-).
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Post by hiryuu on Mar 26, 2007 6:34:26 GMT
Hmm... yes. In that case, you'd be better with Epic Reflex. I think 61 is the highest will save. Tia's reflex is 70, so there's still value there.
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Post by Balduvard on Mar 27, 2007 2:01:41 GMT
Well if you want to maximize the relevant saving throws (without losing any more non-saving throw feats), I'd drop luck altogether, pick up lightning at L1, then L. Reflexes to boost the reflex up to 69, making final saves 65/69/60. I think I'll leave mine at 69/64/64 to leave the most buffer space for Hells penalties.
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Post by alandrian on Apr 9, 2007 1:19:45 GMT
Has anyone tested this build already in hell? Any comments?
Substituting bg with pala would sound nice for the fear immunity and no prequesite feats. I am not sure how hard the xp mali hit you on hg where you level quite fast anyway. What do you think?
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Post by thedomicron on Apr 9, 2007 2:52:16 GMT
if you enjoy the build and spend plenty of time on this server, then the xp penalty ought to be noticable but worth it.
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Post by starlandra on Apr 13, 2007 14:59:56 GMT
...You are correct that ESF: Search is probably needed in the last couple layers.... has this been confirmed yet? my battlerager rogue is level 57 and I have gotten her saves up but could use a little more will. But if esf seach is needed I had best take that instead just not sure.
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Post by Balduvard on Apr 13, 2007 15:43:12 GMT
As a character with rogue as the control class, the maximum skill you will normally have for search with this build is:
63 base skill + 50 from items + Int modifier (7) = 120
So if there are any search checks at the maximum end of the spectrum, you'll need ESF to boost the skill to the max. Better to be safe than sorry.
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Post by dodrudon on Apr 16, 2007 15:36:10 GMT
Regarding skills, will skill bonuses over 50 be applied when there is a skill penalty applied?
For instance, you're wearing equipment that gives +60 to skills, but only 50 apply. Then you get cursed and lose 10 to skills. Do the extra 10 points keep your skills maxed?
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