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Post by booboospooki on Apr 3, 2007 23:04:04 GMT
I'm considering this build because of what I've seen done by Yue and mrslayer, so it is hardly original, but there are a few unique circumstances: 1. I'd like to use gnome as a base race 2. I'd like to use planewalker as a subrace So knowing that this is hardly original, I'd still appreciate some ideas on the viability of this build even though I'm not taking the subraces the other builds focus on. All in all, it resembles Yue's build the most, except I'm going to take Great Constitution later. My questions are basically: * Should I swap around Great CON to before level 40? (Yes) * Am I missing any important feats? * Which other feat choices may be important during LLs ? Okay. *Deep breath.* Here goes: Starting stats:STR 8 (6) DEX 16 (18) CON 14 (16) INT 10 (12) WIS 10 CHA 16 Final stats (without items):STR 6 DEX 48 CON 20 INT 12 WIS 10 CHA 16 - Base Saving Throws at 40 (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 30/26/37 - Naked AC at 40: 30 Going to dual-wield kamas and not taking any conceal feats, maximizing DEX as much as I can. Skills: UMD, Tumble, Discipline and Perform maxed, Heal secondary 01: Bard(1): Toughness 02: Bard(2) 03: Bard(3): Ambidexterity 04: Bard(4): DEX+1, (DEX=19) 05: Bard(5) 06: Bard(6): Two-Weapon Fighting 07: Bard(7) 08: Bard(8): DEX+1, (DEX=20) 09: Bard(9): Curse Song 10: Bard(10) 11: Bard(11) 12: Bard(12): DEX+1, Weapon Finesse, (DEX=21) 13: Bard(13) 14: Bard(14) 15: Bard(15): Improved Two-Weapon Fighting 16: Bard(16): DEX+1, (DEX=22) 17: Monk(1): [All Monk abilities, alignment change] 18: Monk(2): Weapon Focus: Kama, [Deflect Arrows] 19: Paladin(1) 20: Paladin(2): DEX+1, {Smite Evil}, (DEX=23) 21: Monk(3): Improved Critical: Kama 22: Bard(17): [Alignment Change] 23: Bard(18) 24: Bard(19): DEX+1, Epic Weapon Focus: Kama, (DEX=24) 25: Bard(20) 26: Bard(21) 27: Bard(22): Lasting Inspiration 28: Bard(23): DEX+1, Great Dexterity 1 29: Bard(24) 30: Bard(25): Great Dexterity 2 31: Bard(26): Great Dexterity 3 32: Bard(27): DEX+1 33: Bard(28): Great Dexterity 4 (DEX=30) 34: Bard(29): Great Constitution 1 35: Bard(30) 36: Bard(31): DEX+1, Great Constitution 2 37: Bard(32): Great Constitution 3 38: Bard(33) 39: Bard(34): Great Constitution 4 40: Bard(35): DEX+1, Great Dexterity 5 41: 42: DEX+1, Great Dexterity 6 43: 44: DEX+1 From here on, I can take DEX up to 48 and have six feats left to spend in Legendary Levels. Those feats will be: * Blind Fight * Great Dexterity 7 * Great Dexterity 8 * Great Dexterity 9 * Great Dexterity 10 * Extra Music Any thoughts will be appreciated! Edit: Corrected final STR Edit: Moved Great Constitution before level 40
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Post by Acaos on Apr 3, 2007 23:22:44 GMT
Always take all Great Constitution feats before level 40, as bonus hit points gained after that in legendary levels will not be fully retroactive.
I believe your decision not to take conceal feats is correct, since bards get Ethereal Visage.
I don't see you taking any strength points or Great Strength feats - not sure how you mark your final STR as 8.
Acaos
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Post by booboospooki on Apr 3, 2007 23:47:23 GMT
Corrections done as per Acaos - thanks!
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Post by fragment on Apr 4, 2007 4:47:23 GMT
If you don't have UR bard gear you probably want to take epic skill focus perform. You'll be scrambling to reach the perform requirement for your song anyway, and skill focus eases the pressure a bit. If I were to redo my "Yue Bard" I'd splash only one monk, paladin for even higher song. Remember that WIS gives you AC which is not lost when you're flat-footed (happens often during singing) - if you don't *need* the 12 INT, go 12 WIS instead. Consider shaving 2 points off cha to invest into WIS. You will also probably not dual wield but use the legendary horn of blasting instead, so if you need to save feats, save there. Maybe move blind fight and extra music into pre-epic levels and take 2 great wis feats, netting you 1 AC. Generally I suggest not concentrating on raw damage output too much - let the str tanks do that. You need defenses, most of all. EDIT I see you take curse song reasonably early, but ...take curse song as soon as possible, it's soooo useful! EDIT END Regards.
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Post by hiryuu on Apr 4, 2007 6:56:14 GMT
Be sure to take Armor Skin. Maybe take that and Epic Prowess in trade for two Great Dex (+2 AC, +1 AB, rather than +1 of each). I also wouldn't miss Extra Music, since the group regularly stops for mage rest, anyway. Perhaps take ESF: Perform in its place.
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Post by Yomi on Apr 4, 2007 8:38:30 GMT
It took me a bit to realize you've already counted Gnome in your starting stats. Too bad you can't push CON any higher at the start given you're getting it so cheap and you're spending feats on it. While it makes me squirm a little, you could start with 2 higher CON, 2 higher WIS, and 2 lower CHA. Spend 2 of your great CON feats ASAP on CHA as soon as you can. The end result will be 2 higher wisdom = 1 more AC. But an odd feat progression and no 5th and 6th level spells until you get CHA up. You realize you'll have a 40% xp penalty by using gnome vs. human? Consider 4P 1M instead of 3M 2P since you're going to get a double xp penalty regardless of which one you take. For anything but human base, the only advantage of 3M is to get faster movement (for human you also get no xp penalty vs. 20% for 4P1M). Also, realize you're small size, so daggers and kukris are the only weapons you can dual wield without penalties. Kukri's are nice but would cost you an extra feat. Rapiers, another common choice, are a total non-option for you as you can't even finesse them. If you are a gnome using kama's you are taking a -2 to your ab on every attack. *cough* Human? Overall, I don't see any point in gnome over halfling or human. Halfling gives you +2 to dex which is your primary stat. Human gives you an extra feat, an extra skill point per level, and frees up weapon combos. However, if you want to be a gnome for non-character-optimization reasons (which I think you do) then all of this is moot. Long live the Gnomish Underground! I'd take weapon finesse early, as it ought to give you at least a +6 to-hit when you start. Certainly before ambidexterity. Curse Song definitely early. I would take Armor Skin very soon after level 20. That +2 AC will be useful all your career and will be very noticeable while levelling. I'd agree about dropping Extra Music. One feat to turn 35 songs/day into 39 songs/day is so not worth it. It's pleasant to have, but I'd definitely take Lingering Song over it (remembering that Lingering Song stacks with Lasting Inspiration on HG, so your songs will last 150 rounds vs. 100). I suspect once you start playing it past level 10, you're going to be desperate for Lasting Inspriration ASAP. 10 rounds just isn't long enough. I'd swap the levels you are taking Lasting Inspiration and Improved Critical Kama in a heartbeat (since you're taking monk at 21 you may do this at 24 instead). Personally I'd be willing to give up some of that CON. Yomi, an original human/siren Yue cheese bard, has a 12 CON. She has 738hp at level 60, and even with the 20% xp penalty from 4P1M has over 15M xp. Dropping Great CON 3 and 4 from your build would still give you 918hp I believe. Take into account that Yue really wanted Epic Damage Reduction as an option for his bard, and that requires a CON of 21, hence one reason to push all those points into the stat. Since you have neither the CON nor the spare feats to get EDR, I don't think you need to follow that. Regarding INT, since you're not human, you could get away with a 10 INT but it'll be hard. You will not quite have enough to max Discipline, Tumble, Perform, and UMD, and have nothing at all left over for Pickpocket, not to mention putting reasonable amounts into Heal, Lore, or Taunt. However, if you do this, you could either raise wisdom by 2 (for 1 more flatfooted AC) or CON by 2 (freeing up two of your Great CON feats). You can manage fine with UMD 4 points lower than the max.
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Post by booboospooki on Apr 4, 2007 15:24:25 GMT
Wow, lots of stuff to think about! Well, I'm going to make the following changes:
- Starting with 10 INT and 12 WIS (Can max. all nb. except heal) - Taking Epic Spell Focus: Perform instead of Extra Music - Taking Epic Prowess and Armor Skin instead of two Great DEX - Focusing in Daggers instead of Kamas - Taking Weapon Finesse earlier, before Ambidexterity - Dropping Great CON 3 and 4, since I'm not going for DR
I haven't updated the build yet, since I now have some important things to consider: 1. Why dual-wield at all? 2. Why not take 14 CON so that I can have 12 INT and 12 WIS?
Oh, and a way to avoid a 40% XP penalty is to take 5 points in Hide when I take my first Monk level, then taking 4 Blackguard classes - this will make the XP penalty 20%.
Here's the latest class progression table and starting attribute list which I'll include in the first post later:
Attributes, modified by Planewalker
STR 8 (6) DEX 16 (18) CON 12 (14) WIS 12 INT 10 (12) CHA 16
Class Progression
01: Bard(1): Toughness 02: Bard(2) 03: Bard(3): Weapon Finesse 04: Bard(4): DEX+1, (DEX=19) 05: Bard(5) 06: Bard(6): Curse Song 07: Bard(7) 08: Bard(8): DEX+1, (DEX=20) 09: Bard(9): Ambidexterity 10: Bard(10) 11: Bard(11) 12: Bard(12): DEX+1, Two-Weapon Fighting, (DEX=21) 13: Bard(13) 14: Bard(14) 15: Bard(15): Improved Two-Weapon Fighting 16: Monk(1): DEX+1, {Monk abilities}, (DEX=22), *Alignment 17: Blackguard(1) 18: Blackguard(2): Weapon Focus: Dagger, {Smite Good} 19: Blackguard(3) 20: Blackguard(4): DEX+1, (DEX=23) 21: Bard(16): Improved Critical: Dagger, *Alignment Change* 22: Bard(17) 23: Bard(18) 24: Bard(19): DEX+1, Epic Weapon Focus: Dagger, (DEX=24) 25: Bard(20) 26: Bard(21) 27: Bard(22): Lasting Inspiration 28: Bard(23): DEX+1, Epic Prowess, (DEX=25) 29: Bard(24) 30: Bard(25): Armor Skin 31: Bard(26): Great Dexterity I, (DEX=26) 32: Bard(27): DEX+1, (DEX=27) 33: Bard(28): Great Dexterity II, (DEX=28) 34: Bard(29): Great Dexterity III, (DEX=29) 35: Bard(30) 36: Bard(31): DEX+1, Great Dexterity IV, (DEX=31) 37: Bard(32): Great Dexterity V, (DEX=32) 38: Bard(33) 39: Bard(34): Great Dexterity VI, (DEX=33) 40: Bard(35): DEX+1, Great Dexterity VII, (DEX=35)
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Post by hiryuu on Apr 4, 2007 17:45:22 GMT
You can't use a shield with EV, so your off hand will have either a flag/torch or a weapon. For deep Hells, the torch bonuses are better but, in all places short of that, I'd rather be attacking.
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Post by nerohdam on Apr 4, 2007 18:45:19 GMT
Being a bard, is there an advantage for burning two feats to dual wield weapons? Would it be better to just get weapon finesse to use dex? Also, what are the reasons to go more than 1 and 1 in the monk and paladain levels, for the ab progression? Would getting 3 more levels in bard be a better outcome if you are not interested in the speed gained from 2 more levels of monk? or even more why 2 levels of paladin and 3 levels of monk when that would equal 5. I thought ab progression works in groups of 4. So wouldn't 3 of monk and 1 of paladin be better? If you decide not to dual wield, then for a human, would a rapiar be a better choice? Are handaxes a better choice than daggers?
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Post by Bakchuda on Apr 4, 2007 19:19:27 GMT
There's a lot of questions there, but I'm only going to pick one of them, the AB progression:
AB does go in groups of 4, but the non-ab gaining levels come first. That is, with monk levels, you get 0 for one level 1 for 2 2 for 3 3 for 4 3 for 5 4 for 6
etc... So the level you do not gain AB comes first, not last.
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Post by Yomi on Apr 4, 2007 22:07:50 GMT
Are handaxes a better choice than daggers? Handaxes are small, daggers are tiny. This means they are not considered light weapons for small size characters (gnome or halfling). When dual wielding if you used a handaxe in your offhand you'd see a -2 ab penalty to all attacks compared to using dagger or kukri. If you really wanted to you could use handaxe or kama in main hand and dagger or torch in the other. Up to you. I like the extra two attacks, and usually don't need the bonuses from the Standard of Anhur or Leg Horn of Pinnochio after a few LLs. If your intended goal in the party is to sing/curse and be more of a placeholder rather than actually intend to damage things, then sure, do 38/1/1 and single wield for 4 attacks per round. But if you want to actually be a reasonably effective damage dealer in your own right, then the 7 attacks a round of a 35/4/1 dual wielder is better. 4 paladin 1 monk gives you the best ab and most attacks. That's why it's the standard cheese bard. However you get an xp penalty as human and no monk speed. You can do 3M2P, 2M3P, or 1M1P to avoid the xp penalty but both will result in one fewer attack (and the latter 1 less ab). Is going from 55 bard levels to 58 going to buy you much? No difference in attack, 8 vs. 7 in damage, no difference in any saves, 1 higher dodge bonus (only useful DEEP in hells), and 2 higher skill bonus. Your spells aren't that much more effective. For a dexer bard this seems an odd tradeoff -- you're intentionally sabotaging your melee ability to give a hardly noticeable boost to your song/curse. The first demi-god bard had only 52 bard levels, which is a noticeable loss to song and spells, though still a real bard. But he gained some not insubstantial damage dealing ability for the loss. My opinion? Rapier definitely better. I would still choose dagger over handaxe as a non-WM, but it's not that clear cut. You should give some thought to kama to get the extra attacks (probably worse than rapier if that's an option, but maybe better than dagger or handaxe).
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Post by bhao on Apr 4, 2007 22:24:01 GMT
4 paladin 1 monk gives you the best ab and most attacks. That's why it's the standard cheese bard. However you get an xp penalty as human and no monk speed. You can do 3M2P, 2M3P, or 1M1P to avoid the xp penalty but both will result in one fewer attack (and the latter 1 less ab). only if you move the monk level in 4p/1m to after 20 if all this is pre-epic then only 1m/1p makes a difference in ab and attacks.
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Post by kaldair on Apr 4, 2007 23:49:49 GMT
"You can't use a shield with EV, so your off hand will have either a flag/torch or a weapon. For deep Hells, the torch bonuses are better but, in all places short of that, I'd rather be attacking."
Are there any new shields that can be used by Bards that don't nerf EV? All I know of are the mage ones ...
Kaldair =)
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Post by Yomi on Apr 5, 2007 1:16:27 GMT
only if you move the monk level in 4p/1m to after 20 if all this is pre-epic then only 1m/1p makes a difference in ab and attacks. True. I still have a copy of the original Youko 35/4/1 post. It was 4B, 4P, 12B, 1M, 19B -- with the monk level put at 21 which gives you the maximum number of attacks. variant | attacks | bab@40 | 35/4/1 | 4 | 26 | 35/3/2 | 3 | 25 | 38/1/1 | 3 | 25 |
Each of these has the last monk level at 21. The 38/1/1 build also has 2 lower saves than the others unless you move the monk level to 20 which drops level 40 bab to 24.
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