Holy Marksman (Cleric 38/Monk 2)

[johannhowitzer]

Here's an idea I had recently that seems to work quite well. I know HG has pretty inexpensive heal potions, but hey, why not keep your cleric out of the fray a little? That way, you don't get killed before your friends, and that means you can bring them back to life. Also, this build has good AC at later levels and manages to still cast like crazy, with excellent WIS and three epic focuses before using a book.

Human, any Lawful
STR 8, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 12, WIS 18, CHA 8 (use all points earned on WIS)
Leveling: 1-16 Cleric, 17 Monk, 18-39 Cleric, 40 Monk
Feats:
1 - Weapon Proficiency (martial), Spell Penetration
3 - Weapon Focus (longbow)
6 - Zen Archery
9 - Spell Focus (evocation)
12 - Greater Spell Focus (evocation)
15 - Point Blank Shot
18 - Rapid Shot
21 - Spell Focus (necromancy)
24 - Greater Spell Focus (necromancy), Epic Spell Focus (evocation)
27 - Epic Skill Focus (tumble), Epic Spell Focus (necromancy)
30 - Greater Spell Penetration, Epic Spell Penetration
33 - Epic Weapon Focus (longbow), Great Wisdom I
36 - Spell Focus (divination), Great Wisdom II
39 - Greater Spell Focus (divination), Epic Spell Focus (divination)

During Cleric levels, only max Concentration, Heal, and Spellcraft - save all other points. At each Monk level, max Tumble.

The upshot of this build so far is that you have an archer with high attack rolls and epic weapon focus, while sacrificing nothing in terms of cleric spellcasting power. The evocation and necromancy spell focuses will ensure spells hit most of the time, and allow you to get some of the best custom epic spells. For epic focus books, I'd go with Abjuration for Aegis.

I know I haven't finished this build into legendary levels... that's because I'm not too familiar with legendary levels. I do wish I could somehow incorporate Arcane Archer into this build... I suppose that could be done, but at the cost of Monk AC and Tumbling ability. On the other hand, taking enough levels in AA to be effective would eliminate some Epic Cleric bonus feats, and I really like three epic focuses.

The reason I made this build in the first place is because I didn't like how a cleric is fairly weak as tanks go and tends to get killed quickly. If you can just stay back and fire arrows like crazy once your spells run out, you'll be on hand for free resurrections and mass heals from the backfield! The downside is that for Inflicts, you need to get up close, which is quite dangerous for so low a CON. Human was a no-brainer for the XP penalty avoidance, the extra feat, and the skill points.

Please comment and expand. I understand the Spell Penetration feats aren't necessary, and could be nixed in favor of another Epic SF or more Great Wisdom (if the latter, probably also replace Rapid Shot to keep WIS even). Also, I didn't take into account legendary feats, which I'm still unfamiliar with. One of these days I'll get a legendary character!

[chainlink]

I might go with a one handed missile weapon (sling or darts?) as you can still use a shield and as you're not an AA you won't have access to any of the uber bows. Mind you either of these routes take away a load of high level spells slots as you won't be using a staff.

[bort]

I did something similar with Cleric Hs (because if you know where to get the harper scout secret it adds significantly to your defenses).
As chainlink suggests, I used a sling, because in my opinion, the damage output you can get with a bow and no AA levels isn't worth losing a shield for.
The ssithrak sling is +16 and it's pretty easy to buff up to the maximum possible +20 with cleric buffs.

[chainlink]

The beholder sling gives you +17 and may be an even better option, although you need level 55 to use it.

[starlandra]

but you can have 7 attacks with crossbow... 9 if you take the hs option fen posted

[fragment]

I'm a newb, but ...

I was under the impression that the most important thing for casters is their DC, in your case, the implosion DC. So far, that a clerics viability would be measured in "implosion DC@level x".

What you have, is a cleric who

- starts out 2 low on total WIS because of no subrace (=-1 DC)
- sacrificies 5 feats (which could be spent on +DC in the form of great wis, early) (= -2 DC@lvl 40)
- given that you can take 7 feats in LL, and "have" 5 to take for LL penetration and LL spell focus, you'll end up 6 short on wisdom total, since you get only to great wis 4 (=-3 DC@lvl 60)

I understand how one would sacrifice a spell focus for *some* shooting ability, but sacrificing DC may break the character?

But in detail on your build,

- "missing feats", toughness, lighting and epic reflexes (or they'll call you Doctor Statue in desert).
- is there any reason to start with 14 dex except reflex saves? I'd rather go 14 con, 12 dex otherwise.

Please do correct any wrongness in my post

Regards!

[chainlink]

If you are battle cleric then offensive dc is not such an issue but you are completely correct that evocation and spell penetration are pointless in this type of build as if you do intend hurting things with spells you will need the maximum dc possible through race and wisdom stat additions. Two monk levels are also not beneficial, you would be better suited with one paladin and one monk to improve all your saves and moving any spare stat points from Dex to Cha will be beneficial in this case.

[johannhowitzer]

Why not a sling? Well, in my experience, using a shield nullifies the Monk's bonuses, so you might as well go pure Cleric. I tried a pure Monk for a while, and noticed around the time I got to arctic that I was getting hit a lot; then I took off my shield and my AC went up dramatically! Besides, a lot of the uber bows rely on Mighty from what I can tell (not having gone above 20 with an archer, mind you), and my build doesn't involve much STR. Staff, for Cleric?! I thought Clerics were generally frontliners who used longswords or bastard swords or the like.

fragment:
- I'm not a fan of subraces just for cosmetic reasons, but hey, by all means use a subrace if you like! I didn't say you couldn't.
- If using a bow, you really want Zen Archery and EWF... I did mention that PBS and Rapid could be traded for Great Wisdoms. In which case you could indeed switch two DEX points over to CON - the only reason DEX is 14 is because of Rapid Shot!

Saves and shield in general are kind of pointless for a long-ranger like this. Bows can hit stuff from so far away it's not funny. By the time you have to go up to the front to rez or heal, all the stuff you'd need reflexes or a shield for will have already been spent on the tanks.

The reason I put in two Monk levels is for Tumble. A level of Monk at 17 raises Tumble to 20, which allows Epic Skill Focus, and another level at 40 gets it to a max of 53! That's a full 10 AC right there. As for a Paladin level, it might be nice if I could actually spare some points for CHA to actually help saves, but everything needs to be spent on CON, INT, and WIS. Of course, there's always nymph cloaks.

For the DC in general, like I said, feel free to take a subrace for more WIS, though I've already got the initial stat point allocation at its max, both for spellcasting and bow AB.

Also as I said already, I'm unfamiliar with the benefits available in legendary levels. I didn't know about legendary spell focuses, because special legendary feats don't seem to be listed in the books in the Item Shop. I may switch some things around, because more Great Wisdom would be nice, and maybe, just maybe, I'll trade those Monk levels for Wizard and AA. But that's doubtful, since Tumble eliminates the need for Imp Combat Casting, thus freeing two whole feats - and you guys are really harping on keeping feats open for Great Wisdom!

Thanks for the comments. Further thoughts on all this?

[Ironfang]

johannhowitzer said:

Why not a sling? Well, in my experience, using a shield nullifies the Monk's bonuses,

There is a point where if your Wisdom is high enough wearing robes and no shield will net you more AC yes. However there are many nice shields (+13/+14) with a lot of nice immunities you will be losing.

Staff, for Cleric?! I thought Clerics were generally frontliners who used longswords or bastard swords or the like.

Yes there are many battle clerics out there. There are staves though that give you like 7777/8888/9999 spell slots and better if you get the UR ones as well as other stat bonuses and Epic Warding 1/day.

- I'm not a fan of subraces just for cosmetic reasons,

There are quite a few races that do not change appearance or only add wings that are great for cleric and you can still craft your armor and helmets etc.

- If using a bow, you really want Zen Archery and EWF

you might get away without EWF as your buffed AB will be quite high but if the focus of the build is archery then stick with your focus.

Saves and shield in general are kind of pointless for a long-ranger like this. Bows can hit stuff from so far away it's not funny. By the time you have to go up to the front to rez or heal, all the stuff you'd need reflexes or a shield for will have already been spent on the tanks.

- no comments

The reason I put in two Monk levels is for Tumble. A level of Monk at 17 raises Tumble to 20, which allows Epic Skill Focus, and another level at 40 gets it to a max of 53! That's a full 10 AC right there.

From what I have read only actual RANKS count towards the Tumble AC, ESF will not

As for a Paladin level, it might be nice if I could actually spare some points for CHA to actually help saves, but everything needs to be spent on CON, INT, and WIS. Of course, there's always nymph cloaks.

By the time you get into Legenday Levels you should not have trouble maxing CHR out, there are helmets with +10 WIS and +10 CHR and UR helms etc with +12 WIS and CHR etc..or STR and CHR etc.....

maybe, I'll trade those Monk levels for Wizard and AA.

My first toon here was a Cleric/AA and I think I would have liked him had I set it up so my Control Class was AA and my AA levels would have continued into LL, basically less Cleric and just focus on buffs for my AA.

But that's doubtful, since Tumble eliminates the need for Imp Combat Casting,

I wish I knew that, how does that work? I know if you have enough ranks in tumble you don't provoke AoO from moving around does that work for casting spells too? I think I am gonna cry.

Anyways keep us posted how it turns out. Welcome to HG can't wait to see your face when you hit the really high level stuff.

[johannhowitzer]

There is a point where if your Wisdom is high enough wearing robes and no shield will net you more AC yes. However there are many nice shields (+13/+14) with a lot of nice immunities you will be losing.

True enough, though once again, immunity to lots of things is not often necessary when using a bow. You could argue, I suppose, that AC isn't really necessary either, and you'd be right... moot point, I guess!

There are quite a few races that do not change appearance or only add wings that are great for cleric and you can still craft your armor and helmets etc.

Yeah, I know, but I've never actually USED a subrace... maybe it's time I tried a few?

By the time you get into Legenday Levels you should not have trouble maxing CHR out, there are helmets with +10 WIS and +10 CHR and UR helms etc with +12 WIS and CHR etc..or STR and CHR etc.....

Yup, there's a lot of equipment I haven't even seen yet, so it's kinda hard for me to set up builds in advance for certain equipment. Not that this is a reason my build doesn't work or anything.

My first toon here was a Cleric/AA and I think I would have liked him had I set it up so my Control Class was AA and my AA levels would have continued into LL, basically less Cleric and just focus on buffs for my AA.

Yeah, that's good if you want an archer. I was going for more of a spellcaster who can use a bow once the spells run dry, instead of having to run up and hit things or stay back and be useless.

I wish I knew that, how does that work? I know if you have enough ranks in tumble you don't provoke AoO from moving around does that work for casting spells too? I think I am gonna cry.

Here's what the NWN Platinum manual says about Tumble: "Any time the character might receive an attack of opportunity for moving past enemies..." So I guess not. It just occurred to me one day that I might not need ICC if I had enough Tumble, so I threw out those two feats for more epic focuses. Although the build probably wouldn't need ICC anyway, since it's an archer...

Let me restate my purpose in making this build. I wanted to make a cleric who could cast offensively and still be useful once spells run out, but not have to bum rush enemies. Having archery in there using Zen Archery allows for ability points placed in stuff other than STR and DEX. Thus, WIS can be at max, INT can be high enough for four skill points a level, and CON will be decent enough to take some serious hits.

I think the build succeeds in this, at least as far as such a build can. Any ideas on improvement, based on my purpose? I know there are more uber builds out there for clerics AND archers, but I wanted to make a cleric-archer, so I did.

[chainlink]

If you max Wis then you have some hope of being able to cast offensively (although without a Wis boosting subby you're going to struggle to hurt a lot of LL mobs) and if you have Zen archery you will be able to hit stuff. However I would still recomend using a sling because losing the shield is a huge disadvantage for a cleric unless you are going the robes route in which case you are losing a load of damage (and spell) immunity. If you do go robes and bow I'd prepare to have the living crap imploded out of you and spend most of your time in the desert face down as currently the only items that give you immunity to impolsion are armor and shields.

[BigStick]

I think that a Cleric / slinger can be useful and will free up a feat or two if you can give up the archer concept. Clerics get proficiency with slings so you'll save from having to take Martial Weapon Prof. I'd also drop the Rapid Shot so that your DEX can be dropped in favor of something else. That would allow you to take the Necro SF & GSF pre-epic and allow for 2 more Great WIS which will improve your spells and AB. Epic Skill Focus in Tumble (only ranks give AC bonus; 40 ranks = +8AC) can be dropped for Epic Reflexes, Great WIS, or even Epic Prowess.